Episode 298: Where does Egypt stand within the Arab world, and in its relation with Israel? Insights from former Ambassador Hesham Youssef

In this episode, Dominic Bowen and Hesham Youssef discuss the growing tensions and international risks between Egypt and Israel, the fragile state of regional diplomacy, and the pressures placed on long-standing agreements such as the Camp David Accords. 

Find out more about why Egypt views forced displacement from Gaza as an existential red line, how humanitarian access has become a major point of contention, and the shifting political dynamics inside Israel that are influencing regional instability. 

The conversation also addresses the role of the United States and Europe in shaping (or failing to shape) constructive pathways toward peace, its role it mitigating or magnifying international risk, as well as Egypt’s mediation efforts across repeated Gaza conflicts. 

Finally, they explore the broader humanitarian crisis in Gaza, the future of Palestinian governance, and the personal diplomatic experiences that have shaped Ambassador Youssef’s understanding of what is still possible in the Middle East.

Hesham Youssef is an Egyptian career diplomat and conflict-resolution expert with over three decades of experience in Middle Eastern diplomacy. He has served in senior roles at the Arab League, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC), and as a Senior Fellow at the United States Institute of Peace. Currently a Senior Advisor at the European Institute of Peace, Youssef specializes in humanitarian affairs, Arab-Israeli relations, and institutional reform in the Arab world. His career reflects a lifelong commitment to dialogue, peacebuilding, and multilateral diplomacy across the Islamic world.

The International Risk Podcast brings you conversations with global experts, frontline practitioners, and senior decision-makers who are shaping how we understand and respond to international risk. From geopolitical volatility and organised crime to cybersecurity threats and hybrid warfare, each episode explores the forces transforming our world and what smart leaders must do to navigate them. Whether you’re a board member, policymaker, or risk professional, The International Risk Podcast delivers actionable insights, sharp analysis, and real-world stories that matter.

Dominic Bowen is the host of The International Risk Podcast and Europe’s leading expert on international risk and crisis management. As Head of Strategic Advisory and Partner at one of Europe’s leading risk management consulting firms, Dominic advises CEOs, boards, and senior executives across the continent on how to prepare for uncertainty and act with intent. He has spent decades working in war zones, advising multinational companies, and supporting Europe’s business leaders. Dominic is the go-to business advisor for leaders navigating risk, crisis, and strategy; trusted for his clarity, calmness under pressure, and ability to turn volatility into competitive advantage. Dominic equips today’s business leaders with the insight and confidence to lead through disruption and deliver sustained strategic advantage.

Transcript:

00:00 Hesham: When Europe was much more active, years ago, they drafted what was considered the most important documents in the Israeli-Paslestinian conflict, which was “the road madp”. After it was agreed amongst the European, they took it to the region, then took it to the United States, the United States made some minor changes, adopted it, took it to the Security Council, and it was adopted. So, when Europe is united, and is willing to work together, and work with the international community, I think things can advance on a constructive front. 

00:28 Elisa Garbil: Welcome back to the International Risk Podcast, where we discuss the latest world news, and significant events that impact businesses and organisations worldwide.

00:38: Dominic Bowen: Today we’re looking at one of the most strategically sensitive relationships in the Middle East and the increasingly strained ties between Egypt and Israel. With the war in Gaza ongoing, with ongoing military exercises between the USA and Egypt, and then, of course, Israel’s concerns by what they label Egypt’s increasing military presence in the Sinai. There’s, of course, the rising fears of a refugee spillover, and the stability that was once created by the Camp David-era peace processes, those negotiations and treaties that ended decades of war between the two countries are under real pressure for the most we’ve seen, really, in several decades. So to help us understand what’s driving this tension and how serious international risks really are, I’m joined today by Ambassador Hesham Youssef. Now, he’s a veteran Egyptian diplomat, and he’s one of the region’s most respected experts on Arab-Israeli relations, on humanitarian diplomacy, on risk management, and conflict resolution. With senior roles at the Arab League and now the European Institute of Peace, he brings clarity to the relationships that have really shaped the Middle East and security for over half a century. Hashem, welcome to the International Wist Podcast.

01:52: Hesham Youssef: Thank you, Dominic. It’s a pleasure to be with you.

01:54: Dominic Bowen: There’s so much going on in the region, and let’s be honest, there always is. But you know if we look specifically at Egypt and Israel, for the last five decades, the peace that emerged from the Camp David era negotiations really ended this this bitter cycle of state-to-state wars between the two countries. But today we’re seeing this this potential buildup of Egyptian military troops in the Sinai. We’re seeing Israeli violations within the buffer zone, not just against Egypt, but against Syria, in Lebanon, of course, in Palestine. And there’s this real deep distrust going on in the region, centering around Palestine and ongoing conflict and in Gaza and concerns about refugees. From where you’re sitting, how close are we? How close are we to a conflict in the region? And what are we seeing behind the scenes today?

02:40: Hesham Youssef Well, let me start by saying that, yes, you are right. There are huge tensions in the relations between Egypt and Israel, and probably these tensions have reached unprecedented levels since the peace agreement was signed between Egypt and Israel. Is there a threat for further escalation? Yes, but I don’t think that they would reach a level that results in any form of military confrontation. Both sides are very careful and very cautious because the price will be extremely high on both sides and on the region. So this has been the case. And I think the peace agreement has been solid, as you mentioned, for almost five decades by now. So I think we can rely on that. But much work needs to be done. There is a lot of work in order to build confidence. You mentioned military buildup in Sinai. I don’t think that this is an accurate description. I don’t think that Egypt has constituted any threat to Israel since the signing of the peace treaty. But the relations have been going down the drain, particularly in the last two years as a result of the war on Gaza. And we can go into all kinds of details if you wish. 

03:48: Dominic Bowen: And I know we we’re going to talk about quite a few of the risks and the potential of conflict during our conversation today, but it doesn’t always have to be that way. One of the benefits of looking at potential risks and one of the benefits of a analysing potential futures is to be able to mitigate them. And I know that you’ve been in the room during some of the toughest moments in an Arab-Israeli diplomacy, moments where you know tensions really looked unmanageable and diplomacy still managed to find a foothold and resolution managed to be found. Can you take us through one of the the situations, you know, as we’re sitting here now, and we look, and we can sometimes feel helpless about the potential peace process, can you tell us about a successful case where diplomacy really succeeded, where we actually managed to prevent escalation because of successful diplomacy?

04:34: Hesham Youssef: Well, there has been a number of wars that took place between Israel and this Gaza, Hamas, and beyond Hamas, since Hamas took control over Gaza in 2007. This takes took place in 2008, 2009, 2012, 2014, 2021, 2023. And Egypt has been active on almost all these military confrontations, trying to see how a ceasefire can be achieved one time after another. And Egypt has been very, you know, effective in achieving these objectives, sometimes on its own and sometimes with partners, in particular the United States, and more recently in the last few years with the help of Qatar, and also more recently with the help of Turkey. So there has been a lot of effort in relation to trying to see how de-escalation can take place. One of the major challenges that faced this relationship in and as a result of the war on Gaza was the idea that Egypt should take, you know, the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza in order for Israel to be able to deal with Hamas, which is something that Egypt categorically refused and rejected and opposed in all kinds of ways. And this was also followed by an idea that was presented by President Trump, indicating that he wants to establish Riviera and have Palestinians get out of Gaza, and so on. And this was opposed not only by Egypt, but by Egypt, by the region and by the whole world. And in relation to addressing this issue, I think there was major diplomatic effort that was undertaken by Egypt by presenting a plan to say, well, no, there are other ideas where you can deal with the situation and reconstruct Gaza and do all kinds of things without having Palestinians displaced and presented a plan that was adopted by Arab countries in an Arab summit, then by the Islamic countries, and then by a number of European countries and so on. So I think that this was a major diplomatic achievement in relation to persuading Trump, that this is not the best approach. And in his 20-point plan, I think this idea was removed from and the rhetoric, although I think that Israel still hopes to be able to displace Palestinians, as a matter of fact, both in Gaza and in the West Bank. And this is one of the issues that resulted in tensions between Egypt and Israel in the last two years because Egypt feels that Israel wants to have mass displacement of Palestinians outside of Gaza. And, you know, Egypt has been adamant in relation to this. Not that Egypt has a problem with receiving refugees. Egypt has been receiving refugees from all kinds of countries in the region for all kinds of reasons. During this war and on Gaza, Egypt received around 400,000 Sudanese as a result of the war in Sudan. It also has a huge number of Yemenis, and before that, Syrians, and so on. So the issue is not an objection to receiving refugees. The issue is in response to an Israeli approach that hopes to liquidate the Palestinian question, something that Egypt will never accept.

07:30: Dominic Bowen: And I think Cairo has been very consistent and explicit on that point ah that, you know, the forced displacement of Palestinians from Gaza into Sinai is really a red line. And historically, Egypt has always resisted absorbing the political or or demographic spillover from the conflict, whether it was in 1948 or through occupation in 1967 to, you know, the ongoing Israeli actions in Palestine today. Can you help us understand a little bit more detail? Why is this so important to Egypt? And do you think Israeli leaders fully understand how far Egypt is willing to go to prevent this refugee influx into the Sinai? And  what are the risks if lines are crossed?

08:07: Hesham Youssef: Well, some of them understand in Israel what why this is the case. But this is not only for Egypt. This is also for Jordan. As a matter of fact, Jordan indicated that mass displacement into Jordan would be considered an act of war. What does this mean? This means that they even indicated in some form that this means that there would be no peace between Jordan and Israel. This is how sensitive it is. Also, as Israel has been arguing that, well, we will do that only for a short period of time and then they return. Well, in our experience, as you mentioned, since 1948, nobody left and returned anywhere. So from our experience and from our knowledge of the fact that this is a prelude to the liquidation of the Palestinian question, the answer is definitely no. And then we have to see how Palestinians can not only rebuild Gaza, but also rebuild state, along with the West Bank and East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine.

08:58: Dominic Bowen: And you mentioned Trump’s original idea, and he even posted some quite graphic AI-generated videos about the French Riviera in the Palestine. And what’s the latest on that? We’ve heard about some of Trump’s children and diplomats and and real estate and property developers visiting parts of Palestine and that have been occupied by Israel. What are the current developments there? What do we need to know? What should we be aware of?

09:20: Hesham Youssef: Well, as I briefly mentioned before, in the Trump plan, one of the points indicate that the Palestinians would remain and will continue to work on building their country or building us rebuilding Gaza. And it not only referred to that, but it also referred to something even more important, that those who leave will be able to come back. So this is an important message, and this was endorsed by the Security Council. So this has become part of international law in a sense that, you know, Palestinians will not be forcibly displaced, and those who leave will have the right to go back, which has not always been the case.

09:55: Dominic Bowen: Yeah, well, thanks for clarifying that. And Egypt really has played a central role in shaping Arab diplomacy for decades, from Sadat and Mubarak eras through to the mediation efforts that you spoke about that are occurring in Palestine today. But the regional landscape really has shifted and many Gulf states have normalized relationships with Israel and regional alliances have been reshuffling. How do you see the role of the Arab League today at the end of 2025?

10:23: Hesham Youssef: Well, the Arab League is a reflection of the ability of its members. And its members are in chambers. We have to admit that. We have and ah large number of failed states in the region. Look at the situation in Libya, look at the situation in Sudan, look at the situation in Yemen. Syria has all kinds of challenges now after the fall of Bashar al-Assad. So the situation is very volatile in the vast majority of countries in the region. And of course, this is a huge problem. And we will have to see how this would have an impact on the future. Now, there are all kinds of efforts in order to try to see how stability can be achieved in the region with mixed successes and failures. But we have a very long way to go. The countries that are mostly stable in the region are Gulf countries, the GCC members, maybe a number of other countries that are struggling in all kinds of ways. But the situation is dire, and this is reflected in the ability of the Arab League to do all kinds of things. So the Arab League can do much more, but also it is ah the member states that would allow the Arab League either to be more successful or continue to be, not as effective as it should be.

11:30: Dominic Bowen: And when we talk about that effectiveness, if we go back, we’ve spoken about the Camp David Accords back in 1979 a few times and the peace treaty. and then we’ve got the evolution of Egypt’s relationships with Israel, including President Sadat’s historic visit to Jerusalem. There’s been many milestones along these relationships and turning points over the last four or five decades. What’s got us to the spot where we are today, where Israel is expressing concerns about potential military build-ups in the Sinai and potential for for conflict? What’s got us there, and what do you see as the resolution?

12:00: Hesham Youssef: Well, the relations have had its ups and downs throughout these decades. So Egypt withdrew its ambassador from Tel Aviv several times. Once in 1982 when Israel invaded Lebanon. Once as a result of the fact that Israel mistakenly killed the five Egyptian security people on the borders, and so on. So there were tensions and ups and downs throughout the process, but it has been managed in a very cautious and wise way. But the situation is getting out of hand. Why? Because the situation in Israel now internally is a situation whereby you have a coalition that wants to remain in a state of war. And tension with everybody in order to continue ruling the country. So they keep saying we are at war with Lebanon, with Iran, with Yemen, with Gaza, and so on. So, counting all kinds of challenges and so on. But as a matter of fact, in relation to one example, Syria: Syria in its current situation does not constitute any threat to Israel. Yet we see attacks from Israel on Syria day in and day out. We have a ceasefire in Lebanon, and despite the fact that we have a ceasefire, since it was agreed, we have 400 people dead. We have a ceasefire in Gaza, and since the ceasefire, almost 350 people died and around 900 people injured. And around nine hundred people injured. So this is not a ceasefire. And Israel is allowed to do all kinds of things and these practices because it is given a green light by the U.S. administration. So we will see how this would evolve. It is very interesting that only in the last 24 hours, it was indicated that President Trump ah indicated to Israel that what it is doing in Syria is going beyond what is expected and what is accepted. And we will see. And Israel is saying, well, we will do that for our security. And this applies to Gaza, that we are killing all kinds of people because of our security. I don’t agree with that. I don’t buy that. Because I think both on the Lebanese front and in Gaza, those who are in control do not want to return to war. But Israel wants to maintain this state of war in order to continue the rule of the current most extreme coalition in the history of Israel. So we will see how this would play out. And there has been also other issues. So you’re talking about the Camp David Agreement and the respect for the Camp David Agreement. Egypt sent all kinds of forces to Sinai, but they were always with the acceptance of Israel because Israel, as I mentioned earlier, knows that Egypt does not have as an objective to have these forces deal with Israel in any way. And this is related to security in Sinai, and that’s it. Without any other objectives. Israel also knows that they have violated the peace treaty in relation to attacks Particularly in the in area D, because we have areas A, B, and C in Sinai that allows different levels of forces in these three areas, but there is an area D inside Israel where also they have limitations on arms that are supposed to be in this area. And this area D runs from the Red Sea up to the Mediterranean. And this was violated by Israel. And Israel knows that it violated these security provisions in the Camp David Agreement. And Egypt was extremely patient and did not raise this issue in a dramatic way in order to escalate the situation. So, and then humanitarian assistance. Can you imagine with Israel preventing humanitarian assistance, going to the International Court of Justice and saying that Egypt is the one preventing assistance from entering Gaza? In response, Egypt brought dignitaries from all over the world to come and see what’s happening at the Rafah crossing. And nobody on earth said anything other than one conclusion: that Israel is preventing humanitarian assistance and we see this until today, despite the ceasefire and Israel’s commitment to allow humanitarian assistance to answer they are still not entering and there are reports that only 25 percent of what Israel accepted in the ceasefire agreement are entering Gaza. So, you know, these kinds of issues result in continued tensions between Egypt and Israel. And we will see how the situation evolves. But if there is wisdom on the parts of those leading Israel, this would not be the case because Egypt has not escalated. but As a matter of fact, since the 7th of October, 2023, until today, Egypt did not take any measures against Israel. did not withdraw the ambassador it not It did not did not, you know, stop economic relations. As a matter of fact, they we even reached ah and ah a gas deal only few months back. And then Israel decided not to pursue this issue after an initial agreement was reached between the companies that deal with these issues. So we will see how Israel would we deal with the developments in relation to its the you know cooperation with Egypt and so on. And we will take it from there.

16:29: Dominic Bowen: You’ve got a fantastic career in in diplomacy, and I think everyone recognises that diplomacy is extremely difficult. But there’s an extra level of sensitivity and complexity with this relationship. And I think anyone that looks at the situation in Israel, and I think most Israelis as well, and certainly all the Israelis that I speak to, recognise that Benjamin Netanyahu is really declaring a war on everyone in order to stay in power, recognising that he has significant corruption trials outstanding. He will likely go to prison if he steps down from power. So he’s potentially holding on to power in order to stay out of prison. And that causes huge diplomatic challenges, but also huge humanitarian suffering, apart from the fact that there’s been over 70,000 civilians killed in Palestine, over the last couple of years. As you said, 400 Lebanese killed since the ceasefire. 350 Palestinians killed since the ceasefire. How do diplomats negotiate and work through a situation as complicated and as long-term as the one between Israel and Egypt and Israel and Palestine and Israel and Yemen and Israel and Syria and Israel and Lebanon. How do you How do you even begin to to unpack that puzzle to achieve a lasting peace?

17:35: Hesham Youssef: Well, one point in relation to Netanyahu and then another in relation to how we deal with this issue. In relation to Netanyahu, he asked to be pardoned, and he sent a request to the president to achieve this objective. We will see how this would evolve and there is a huge debate in Israel about whether this would be accepted or not and what are the conditions and whether he should leave politics in order for this to take place because there are those who are feeling that he may, you know, have revenge over those who have led to all these court cases and so on. So we will see. And this is a fascinating era in Israeli diplomacy and in Israeli politics, and we will see how this will be dealt with. But as to how we deal with this situation, by trying to put pressure to bear on Israel through all kinds of efforts and activities, whether by talking to the Trump administration, talking to the Europeans, going to the United Nations. A resolution on Israel-Palestine was adopted only yesterday with 151 votes, which is extremely high, supporting what the international community views as the final settlement of this conflict, which is two states living side by side in peace and security. And we have… always try to see how to respond to legitimate Israeli security concerns. This was the case in Egypt, as I mentioned, areas A, B, and C with limited military equipment, and so on. This is the case with Jordan that also reached an agreement that takes security concerns of Israel into account and so on. So we’re willing to do that. We’re willing to do that on all fronts because the hope is to have peace between Israel and all its neighbors and all the countries in the region. So we are not eager to have a conflict and wars. We are eager to have peace and stability. And we are telling Israel that the potential is huge for regional cooperation. You know, the $35 billion dollars worth of gas deal; this is one deal. With one country, Egypt, in relation to one product. So imagine what the potential is. And I think also the recent agreements that we reached in the Abraham Accords between the United Arab Emirates and Israel and Bahrain and Israel, Morocco, indicated to Israel that the countries in the region are willing to accept Israel in the region, provided that Israel starts working towards a solution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But so far, we haven’t been able to put enough pressure to bear on Israel to move in this direction, and I hope that President Trump, with his abilities, would be able to achieve this objective in the near future.

19:59: Dominic Bowen: And Hesham, I’ll just take a moment to remind our listeners that if they prefer to watch their podcasts, they can do so on YouTube. So please go to wherever you download and watch your podcasts, primarily YouTube, and search for the International Risk Podcast, and you can watch the podcast there as well. But Hesham, I’d love to understand your view. Obviously, Hamas, the military, was conducted a heinous terror attack ah two years ago, but the political members of that group are still in control of Gaza. So from Egypt’s perspective… How does the relationship ah sit between Egypt and the Palestinian Authority versus Hamas? And what can future look like with either the Hamas or the Palestinian Authority and in control of Gaza and the West Bank?

20:43: Hesham Youssef: Well, the question that we should ask is, why is Hamas still in control? Although Hamas, as a result of pressure coming from Egypt, Turkey, Qatar and others, have agreed not to have a role in governance. But it was the Israeli government that refused to discuss any steps in relation to governance in the day after, as they used to call it, the rhetoric and the narratives in the media and so on. And this is happening until today. So they’re saying no PA. Okay, why? The PA is working and cooperating until today with Israel, including on security coordination in the West Bank. So what is the problem in having the PA go to Israel? Gaza, I know there are all kinds of criticisms of the PA and they are justified okay but does this mean that you continue to divide between Gaza and the West Bank? Because this is Israeli objective, that it is not governed by one entity, And they hope to be successful in that. And so far, they have been. And then as a result, in order to accommodate Israel, Egypt came up with the idea of, okay, let’s have a technocratic government that would be interim until we are able to have the Palestinian Authority backing us. And Egypt has been working with the U.S., with Europe, and with countries in the region to try to implement that. And for the most part, it is Israel that is also objecting because there are some things that need to be addressed in coordination with the Palestinian Authority, including, for example, people going in and out of Gaza. Okay, if you have a technocratic government, where would they get the information about the Palestinians, about those who are living in Gaza, those who are leaving, those who are coming in, and so on? What laws will be applied? Will they be the laws that were applied by Hamas or the laws that are applied by the PA in the West Bank and were applied in Gaza before? So there are some issues that require the contribution and role by the PA. But then Israel keeps continuing to say “no PA!”. Okay. And this is creating a challenge and the difficulty in trying to see how this can be achieved. But in relation to the challenges and the problems and the division between Fatah and Hamas and so on, Egypt has been trying to deal with the reconciliation issue for quite some time. And this is a pity that it hasn’t worked and it still is not working. And the divisions are not easy to resolve. And I think that they need, we need to have Palestinian elections. Of course, not now is not the time and it would require perhaps two or three years in order to do that. But that should be the objective. Whatever happens, this should be a transitional period that would allow, you know, Palestinians to work together on all kinds of issues and then have elections and then based on elections, the situation will change dramatically. And as a matter of fact, when Abu Mazen signed the decree to have elections in 2021 the mood in both the west bank and Gaza changed dramatically and then we found new blood coming in young people fragmentation within fat fragmentation also in Gaza in relation to political forces and so on sadly they didn’t take place ah but this is a necessity in order to have a path that is more supported by the public, we have to have elections. Particularly that both Fath and Hamas are not that popular, and the PA as well. So neither is Hamas popular in Gaza because of the massive destruction that took place. All the Palestinians have lost everything that they own. So they have to be angry at Hamas, and they are. And in the West Bank, as a result of you know the way in which governance is taking place, and Israeli practices, etc., the Palestinians in the West Bank are also extremely disappointed at what is happening by the Palestinian Authority as well. So this has to be rectified, and it cannot be rectified without people choosing their own leaders. So I hope that this would be part of the plan to go ahead as a result of the current efforts in relation to ensuring that the ceasefire is stable and continuous.

24:19: Dominic Bowen: And behind all these diplomatic efforts are people, and Gaza remains in a state of you know what can only be called a catastrophic humanitarian emergency with famine, mass displacement, a completely collapsed health system, and conditions are really life-threatening for a large share of the Palestinian population, especially children, pregnant women. And of course, we’ve got displaced people living in tents as winter sets in. There’s been a formal famine that’s been declared in Gaza, and that’s by the United Nations, and the UN World Food Program has warned that famine-level hunger is spreading across all of Gaza. Now, there’s hundreds of thousands of people facing what’s classified as “catastrophic” food insecurity. There’s over 320,000 children under the age of five at risk of acute malnutrition, tens of thousands of mothers, pregnant and lactating women in need of urgent humanitarian support. And so, given this ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza, how is Egypt managing the humanitarian pressure along its border today, Hesham?

25:18: Hesham Youssef: Well, it is doing whatever it can to pressure Israel to accept humanitarian assistance. But I think the sad thing is, this should have been the rule of the United States. Because Israel has no other option than to abide by what the United States indicates in issues that are supposed to be easier than others. Humanitarian assistance is supposed to be much easier. Because, as you said, you’re dealing with starving people, you’re sending food! So what is allowing now is canned drinks and Chips, and things like that, but it is not allowing meat, chicken, and milk. So this kind of thing, and the U.S. Has had a center built in Israel in order to monitor the situation and the ceasefire. And they know very well. And I have to indicate that I personally have been extremely disappointed at the position of the United States, whether it was the Biden administration or the current Trump administration in relation to human humanitarian assistance. Because, as you said, there is starvation. The UN said there is starvation. Even President Trump at one point in time called Netanyahu and told him, you know there is salvation. “What you’re saying is incorrect. There is no starvation”. No, there is salvation. I’ve seen myself the pictures and so on. So President Trump recognized that this is the case. Okay, what did the US do about it. Sadly, nothing. Even after the ceasefire, what did the U.S. do about it? Not much. So yes, of course, there has been some increase in the military assistance and entering Gaza, but it is nowhere near to what is needed and what is available already in Egypt, waiting to enter into Gaza, but is not allowed by Israeli authorities.

26:38: Dominic Bowen: And Hesham, if we pivot a little bit and look further afield, Egypt frames Europe as a strategic and a comprehensive partner. So when we look towards the future, what forms of strategic cooperation does Egypt envisage with its European partners, especially in terms of energy and security and infrastructure?

26:55: Hesham Youssef Cooperation between Egypt and Europe is extremely extensive on all kinds of issues. And it could be even, it can go even much further on all kinds of issues. Israel-Palestine is one of them, but there are many others. There is Libya, there is Sudan, there is the Red Sea security, and so on. So this is ongoing. And I have to admit that the European Union has recently been quite generous in its support to Egypt by providing assistance on all kinds of projects. There are also ah and as a matter of fact in relation to Israel as well there was a memorandum of understanding that was signed between egypt israel and the European union in relation to supplying gas to europe so so there has been all kinds of cooperation. Still, sadly on the political and on the political fund um it is not that easy because Europe is divided on all kinds of issues. So when you come to Israel-Palestine, of course they are divided. When you come to Libya, there were challenges, as well as competition and tensions, between France and Italy. Of course, some of this was overcome, but this kind of division amongst European countries is preventing Europe from playing a more effective role. And we’ve been trying to see with many European countries through diplomatic channels and so on to see whether it would be possible for Europe not to necessarily act in its entirety, but, you know, Like-minded countries that are ah willing to work on an issue can work together and try to see how they can cooperate with the region to advance the prospects of peace. One of these efforts, which was established a few years back was the Munich Group. That includes France, Germany, Egypt and Jordan, two of the key countries in Europe dealing with conflicts. in Particularly in that case, it was the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and two of the most important Arab countries dealing with the conflict, ah Egypt and Jordan. So these kinds of arrangements, I think, can be beneficial in trying to see how the Europeans can become more effective. And Europe keeps complaining and saying, well, we want to be a player and not a player only and so on. And I keep telling them also behind closed doors, you know, if you want to be a player, you have to act like a player. And I keep reminding them that when Europe was much more active, you know, years ago, they drafted what was considered one of the most important documents in to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which was the roadmap. And this roadmap, after it was agreed amongst the Europeans, they took it to the region and they took it to the United States. The United States adopted it, made some minor changes and then modified it and then took it to the Security Council and it was adopted by the Security Council. So when Europe is united and is willing to work together and work with the international community, I think things can advance on a constructive path, but Europe needs to get its act together. I know that they are focusing now on Ukraine. And we hope that the situation improves in Ukraine, although I also have my doubts, but because it’s another difficult conflict on the European scene and so on. But if we are able to deal with the situation in Ukraine, I hope that this would allow European countries to become much more active in the Middle East in a manner that would advance stability in the region.

29:50: Dominic Bowen: Thanks for explaining that, Hesham. And i wonder if we look domestically within Egypt, what do you think two or three strategic domestic priorities that Egypt needs to address in the coming years in order to, I guess, ensure regional peace and stability?

30:05: Hesham Youssef: Well, you asked about two dimensions. One of them is regional, and the second is domestic. In relation to domestic, of course, the economic situation is quite dire. There has been some ups and downs. Hopefully, Egypt would be able to advance because, as you well know, and this relates to the situation in the region, We have Libya on one side that is unstable and without advancing towards stability and peace. We have Sudan with one of the worst humanitarian situations on Earth today as well. And we have Yemen. with its impact on Red Sea security and the Suez Canal, making Egypt lose around $8 billion dollars this year, and so on. So these are huge challenges that are facing Egypt, and they are working to see how this can be advanced in ah in a proper way. And finally, another challenge is… challenges with Ethiopia in relation to the River Nile and managing the Renaissance depth. So we will see how Egypt would face all these challenges. It will not be easy and it is not easy. But I think with also the help and cooperation of others, we will see how the situation evolves. The IMF has a delegation in Egypt these days. And they are discussing and reviewing the agreement between Egypt and IMF on the reform steps that are supposed to be taken, where the IMF is complaining that there are steps that were supposed to be taken by Egypt, particularly in relation to privatizing some of the companies that are publicly owned to become private. And, you know, so these efforts are ongoing. I hope they advance on ah on a positive note.

31:29: Dominic Bowen: Thanks for explaining those really wide and diverse issues that we all need to be considering. And I think to finish up, Hesham, I’d love to hear from you. I mean, people often imagine that diplomacy is really just documents and summits, but really the breakthroughs and the failures usually come from the private conversations, from the trust that’s been built and sometimes broken and from individuals taking risks. And you know certainly, when I look at some of the significant negotiations that I’ve been a part of, really, it often comes down to people willing to take risks and establish relationships and put something on the table. And when you look back at your long career, is there ah a personal interaction or behind-the-scenes exchange, maybe with ah a Palestinian negotiator or a regional leader or an Israeli counterpart that really changed your understanding about what is possible and perhaps hopefully gives us some hope for the future?

32:19: Hesham Youssef: Well, diplomacy is about hope. All that we do is in the hope of advancing situations that are dire. And you’re absolutely right. I have worked on many of these issues throughout my career. On the situation in Lebanon, when after the 2006 war, reaching the Doha agreement in 2008, allowing a new president to be chosen, allowing elections to take place, and so on. We worked on the reconciliation in Iraq, where it was extremely difficult. And we partially succeeded as well. We worked on We went to the Security Council in order to stop the war in Lebanon in 2006, arriving at Security Council Resolution 1701. And also in 2008-2009 to arriving at Security Council Resolution to stop the war in Gaza. You know, I can’t tell, I have hundreds of stories, but I’ll tell you only one of them. And this was during our negotiations to end the war in 2008, 2009, and we were at the Security Council, and we drafted a resolution that was presented to the Council to achieve a ceasefire. And initially, the three powers at the time that we were negotiating with United States, France, and the UK. United States, it was Condoleezza Rice. France, it was Foreign Minister Kushner, who was before that working at Médecins Sans Frontières, and David Miliband from the UK. And we were negotiating and so on. And one of the ambassadors, the ambassador of the UK at the time at the UN, came to me and told me, “well, you look like you want a veto”. I said: “yes, I want a veto”. He said, “why?”. I told him, “because you see, we presented a reasonable resolution. And you’re fighting with us over this resolution and saying, no, you don’t want the Security Council to come up with a resolution at all. So I want to go back to the region and tell them we tried, we went to the Security Council, we presented the resolution, and the superpowers, particularly the U.S. and others, do not want to end the war. And if we negotiate this resolution with you, it will become a weak resolution. So I go back home, and they will criticize me, saying, “Why did you accept the weak resolution?”. So for me, if you don’t accept the reasonable resolution, I’ll go back home and I’ll be, you know, toast”. So he said, “Oh, this makes sense. So let’s think about it”. And then at the end of the day, we negotiated. They weakened the resolution, but it was adopted and the ceasefire was reached. So diplomacy works. Not that often, with what we’re seeing around the world, as you can see, but at the end of the day, you know there are only two ways. You either do it in a peaceful way or in a violent way. And as far as diplomats are concerned, our whole objective on Earth is to try to see how we can steer discussions in a direction where we deal with the situation peacefully rather than allow violence, military action, and to dictate what is going to happen. Of course, you know, sometimes what happens on the ground militarily dictates what happens in diplomacy. But at the same time, the most important element of this whole story is to try to see how the world can abide by international law. And that is the key. And this is the problem that we are facing today. That international law is being destroyed. we see what’s happening in relation to a warrant for arrest from the ICC and how it is dealt with in different ways depending on who the warrant for arrest is for. We see opinions coming from the International Court of Justice and how they are dealt with and so on. And we see also what’s happening in Israel-Palestine and with Ukraine in relation to international law. You know, how does this impact where international law would go? And we were talking earlier about international humanitarian law, and how people are starving and not receiving food, and so on. So if there is a concern for me, it is the politics of all kinds of issues that prevent diplomacy from achieving the objectives that we are trying to achieve.

35:49: Dominic Bowen: Well, thank you very much for explaining that, Hesham, and thank you very much for coming on the International West podcast today.

35:55: Hesham Youssef: Well, it was a pleasure talking to you, Dominique, and i hope I hope this would be seen as useful also for those who will be listening to this podcast. Thank you.

36:05: Dominic Bowen: I’m sure it will. So thank you very much for coming on. Well, that was a great conversation with Ambassador Hesham Youssef. He’s held senior roles at the Arab League and now he’s at the European Institute for Peace. And I really appreciated hearing his thoughts on the risks and the opportunities shaping Israel-Egyptian relations and many other relations across the region. Please remember to go to our website and subscribe to our mailing list to get our bi-weekly newsletter in your email inbox every two weeks. This episode was produced and coordinated by Melanie Meimoun, and our video content is produced by Stephen Penny. Thanks very much for listening. I’m Dominic Bowen, the host, and I’ll speak with you again in the next couple of days.

36:40: Elisa Garbil: Thank you for listening to this episode of the International Risk Podcast. For more episodes and articles, visit theinternationalriskpodcast.com, follow us on LinkedIn, Bluesky, and Instagram for the latest updates, and to ask your questions to our host, Dominic Bowen. See you next time!