Episode 406: The World Is Normalising the Taliban with Shaharzad Akbar

More than five years after the Taliban returned to power, millions of Afghan women and girls remain shut out of education, work and public life, while governments around the world are quietly normalising relations with Kabul.

In this episode of the International Risk Podcast, host Dominic Bowen speaks with Shaharzad Akbar, former chairperson of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission and founder of Rawadari, an organisation documenting Taliban abuses and pursuing accountability from exile.

Shaharzad shares her journey from a childhood of displacement and refugee life in Pakistan to Smith College and Oxford, and back to Kabul. She explains what daily life looks like for women and girls inside Afghanistan today, how they are finding creative ways to keep learning and working despite the risks, and why the world’s growing willingness to engage with the Taliban is so dangerous.

In this episode:
– Shaharzad’s story: growing up displaced, and her parents’ commitment to education
– Life for Afghan women and girls today: the mental health crisis, forced early marriage and secret classrooms
– How women are working around Taliban restrictions, and the risks they face
– Why geopolitical interests are overtaking human rights, including Russia’s recognition of the Taliban
– Her experience as a delegate in the Doha talks and the Taliban’s PR strategy
– The economic and social cost of an entire generation of girls shut out of education
– Understanding the Taliban’s worldview and why they fear educated women
– Access to healthcare and justice for women, including domestic violence
– How the Taliban’s legal and enforcement machinery has developed into what Shaharzad calls a gender apartheid system
– Whether the Taliban’s impunity is emboldening other countries and extremist groups
– What business leaders, governments and listeners can actually do to help
– The international risks that concern Shaharzad most: misinformation, climate change and the erosion of solidarity

Episode Transcript:

Dominic Bowen: In August 2021, the Taliban returned to power in Afghanistan. And since then, millions of Afghan women and girls have been progressively excluded from education, from employment and from much of public life.

Dominic Bowen: For more than five years, these restrictions have remained in place and international attention has slowly moved elsewhere. Some governments are now starting to normalise relationships with the Taliban. I’m Dominic Bowen, host of the International Risk Podcast. Today we’re joined by Shahrzad Akbar.

Dominic Bowen: She’s the former chairperson of the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission. She led this institution until the Taliban takeover forced her into exile. She now runs Rawadari, an organisation she founded to document the Taliban’s treatment of Afghan women and girls and pursue accountability from outside Afghanistan.

Dominic Bowen: Shahrzad, welcome to the International Risk Podcast.

Shahrzad Akbar: Thank you for having me. Dominic

Dominic Bowen: Well, thanks very much for this conversation. We’ve done quite a few episodes. During the fall of the previous government, whilst the Taliban was increasingly taking over territory. And then we’ve done several episodes since talking about human rights violations and the ability of women and girls to exercise their human rights. And we’re really pleased to be able to revisit this topic with you.

Dominic Bowen: But. I think I’d love to start if it’s okay by hearing your story. Where were you born? Where did you grow up? Tell us about your family and what life was like in Afghanistan for you.

Shahrzad Akbar: Well, I am one of seven siblings. I come from a big family, like many Afghan families. I was born in North Afghanistan in a province called Javzjan. And I was born in 1987, so my childhood was spent in internal displacement primarily, because we had that at that period, the Soviet invasion and prisons, and then the war against the Soviets and civil war.

Shahrzad Akbar: so When I was a teenager, or in my early teens, we migrated to Pakistan because Taliban came back. Came to power at that time from 1996 to 2001.

Shahrzad Akbar: And, sorry, 1996 to 2001. And so we were, we lived in Pakistan for a while as refugees, and then we returned as soon as schools reopened for girls. We were back in Afghanistan in February.

Shahrzad Akbar: 2002, and then I stayed in Afghanistan. I lived there. I studied abroad. I went to Smith College in the US, and then I came to Oxford. To pursue a master’s degree, but all roads led back to Kabul and I left there. I you know, start working for the commission. I had a child, I got married and then was forced into exile when Taliban.

Shahrzad Akbar: came back to power. Like many others. Activists and educated Afghan women.

Dominic Bowen: And that’s fantastic. And, you know, I think your story is inspirational to so many people. Tell us how. You know, I’ve had the blessing to be able to support and work in refugee camps around the world. And you know despite the efforts of many local and international actors you know conditions in refugee camps and conditions for displaced people is really difficult But you clearly, you know, you’ve you’ve had an amazing education, amazing opportunities, and you’re able but to bring that back to Afghanistan.

Dominic Bowen: Talk to us, for any maybe Afghan women or girls that are able to listen to this episode, you know how did you get from Afghanistan to a displaced persons camp to actually be able to study overseas? In ultimately some of the world’s best institutions.

Shahrzad Akbar: Well, one of the key things in that made the major difference in my life were my parents. My parents were really dedicated to our education. My mom was a primary school teacher. My father was a journalist and activist, although he never had formal university education. He was a self-taught man. And they really believed in gender equality. You know, they really believed in raising their daughters as they would raise their sons. And they really invested on education. They thought, even if we if we can’t you know.

Shahrzad Akbar: feed If we can’t have nice food, we should have education for our daughters. I remember going to English classes when I was as young as seven. And many friends of my father, they were

Shahrzad Akbar: laughing at us. They were joking with him saying, you know, these are kids. Why are they learning English? Let them first learn their own language fully. And he said, no, this is the language of science. This will give them access to the world. I want them to have opportunities we didn’t have. And he was right in that did open a lot of doors for me.

Shahrzad Akbar: and You know, speaking, learning English at a young age did open a lot of doors for me when things changed in Afghanistan, like scholarships that then enable enabled me to study abroad. So I think right now are also the champions for me are the parents inside Afghanistan who are.

Shahrzad Akbar: trying to do anything they can to educate their girls. My parents sold their apartment to be able to migrate to Pakistan. And then we lived there under very, extremely difficult conditions, but they still wanted to make sure that they could send us to math classes, English classes, to school, refugee schools in Pakistan.

Shahrzad Akbar: and Parents are, what breaks my heart is that another generation has to has to go through that though, unfortunately now.

Dominic Bowen: Hmm. And you’ve described the situation for Afghan women as being akin to being buried alive breathing but unable to do much else.

Dominic Bowen: Is that how you still describe the situation in Afghanistan today?

Shahrzad Akbar: Yes, the conditions inside of Afghanistan for women and girls has unfortunately gotten worse, not better. I mean,

Shahrzad Akbar: Girls as young as 12 years old can’t go to school. They are confined to their homes. There’s a mental health crisis of young women and girls. So many young girls and women that I talk to, they feel pessimistic about their future. They are being forced into marriages when they are very young and not ready to get married. They can’t contribute to the society. They feel that they can’t flourish their talents. And because of, you know, internet, and they learn about how women live in other countries, including in other Islamic countries. So the unfairness of it is a lot to carry as well. But I do. Also want to recognize that women are

Shahrzad Akbar: Again, every day I am talking to women who are fighting despite these restrictions, who are trying to find a way, who are creative, and they are playing this cat and mouse game with the Taliban, where they are trying to step stay a step ahead of the authorities and find a workaround around their restrictions to continue learning, to run small businesses.

Shahrzad Akbar: to continue to have you know feel empowered and make a contribution.

Dominic Bowen: That must be incredibly dangerous. And i’ve I’ve spent quite a bit of time in Afghanistan. And You know, the Taliban and the penetration of both the Taliban and al-Qaeda and local criminal groups was

Dominic Bowen: was you know ever present and it was very difficult to determine who was who for the afghans but definitely for the international groups as well but For women that are trying to even just get on the internet. To research what’s happening in the rest of the world. That’s a dangerous activity. Using mobile phones to call internationally is a dangerous activity setting up businesses as a woman is a dangerous activity how are women doing it? And the other question would be Why? Why are they putting themselves at risk?

Shahrzad Akbar: Well They, like women everywhere in the world, like humans everywhere in the world, they have ambitions for themselves. They have dreams. They want to contribute. They want to be They want to learn. They want to challenge themselves. But they do face a lot of risks. I mean, we have documented cases where young women have been detained because they were running an online shop.

Shahrzad Akbar: And Taliban somehow figured who is behind this online shop.

Dominic Bowen: Hmm.

Shahrzad Akbar: They were selling some jewelry or crafts online, and they were detained. We have spoken to teachers who are running secret classrooms at home, and they have been detained by the Taliban for running these secret classrooms for girls older than 12 years old.

Shahrzad Akbar: And detention is sometimes two hours, sometimes months, and sometimes it means disappearance. You never hear from these people again. The families are not informed. So Taliban can be quite ru They are, their intelligence is very, very active. They monitor social media. I think it would have been much harder for women to do the small things that they do without the internet. But Even that, Taliban have found ways to monitor and to restrict. And

Shahrzad Akbar: When i was speaking earlier today to a young education activist inside Afghanistan, and she said, you know, I feel guilt every day. I was amazed. I said, why? She said, because at least I have a smartphone and I can have internet and I can learn and I’m you know enrolled on this online university. And I want to do something for, you know. Millions of girls who don’t have the same opportunities that I have despite all the restrictions that she

Shahrzad Akbar: Faces living in Afghanistan. She can’t leave her house without a male guardian. She will be stopped for her outfit. She can’t go to a formal university. She’s driven by this.

Shahrzad Akbar: Commitment. To help others. So I think there are there are remarkable people out there. Men and women and young in and very young women who also then inspire courage in others around them.

Dominic Bowen: Now, you’ve had a lot of back and forth. I mean, as you discussed, you fled Afghanistan during the first Taliban regime as a child. You returned after 2001. You then found yourself again in exile after the Taliban returned in 2021.

Dominic Bowen: But when you look at Afghanistan today, in late 2026. What surprises you most? About how Afghanistan has changed over the last two decades.

Shahrzad Akbar: I think it was a huge shock to me that Taliban came back to power. I wanted to hold on to hope that there would be some sort of a political settlement, that we would lose some freedoms, but they wouldn’t be the only party in power. So I think that has, I have reflected a lot about why we end up there. What was the role of international community? What was the role of us as Afghans and Afghan politicians, Afghan people? In

Shahrzad Akbar: in government leaders in the human rights movement what did we miss what mistakes we met but also the other surprising thing for me i must say is the ongoing the ongoing

Dominic Bowen: Hmm.

Shahrzad Akbar: Civic. Struggle, the ongoing creativity of women and girls. I felt like another and you know another era of Taliban in power that would That would just be so discouraging, especially for young women, I thought, who had never lived under the Taliban regime before. Women younger than me, women in their 20s, early 20s. But those are they are those are the people who are actually trying to innovate. And they are developing apps they are learning you know computer science they are so

Shahrzad Akbar: that has been That has been a good surprise to see that. That the young woman have the motivation and the energy to believe that this is not the end of their journey, something different is possible.

Dominic Bowen: and your journey, whilst difficult, has been successful and you know i think a real beacon for many young women you completed postgraduate study at oxford university but for a girl who’s born in Afghanistan today. A young girl born in Afghanistan in 2026.

Dominic Bowen: if she had the same ambitions or the same objectives and goals that you had, What would her path even look like? What would be your advice to her and to her parents?

Shahrzad Akbar: I think incredibly difficult because it’s it’s one thing is the reality of the taliban on the ground the fact that they are limiting education they are limiting you know

Shahrzad Akbar: attainment for women in such a strategic way. In using laws using policies and using a brutal force but the other thing dominic is that the world unfortunately is closing its doors to the face of afghan women and girls they are normalizing the taliban i am here in the uk whereas that there is an active and study visa ban.

Shahrzad Akbar: for Afghanistan. You know, I went to study in the US and I then came to the UK. And half a woman right now would not be able to get a visa to the US. Or to the UK to do these studies so on the one hand we have this brutal regime on the other hand we have a broader global climate which is less friendly to human rights, less friendly to women’s rights, less accepting of people from outside. Strict refugee and migration systems and

Shahrzad Akbar: I think this would have made it harder. But my advice still would be, especially to the parents, keep doing what you can. Keep investing in a better future. This is not this is not the end. You don’t know when the might change might come the change might come, and you better be ready for it.

Dominic Bowen: Hmm. Exactly. I think that’s fantastic advice, you know. However incredibly difficult the situation is, you still have to do what you can. That might not be a lot, but do what you can and when the situation changes.

Dominic Bowen: make sure you’re in the best possible position. And you spoke about brutal regimes around the world. And of course, you know, one is Russia, and they formally recognized the Taliban government in 2025. And sadly, Several other regional powers are also

Dominic Bowen: what might be called pragmatic relations with kabul they’re engaging with the taliban Are we a point? Are we approaching a point? Where geopolitical interests now outweigh international pressure over women’s rights. And If so

Dominic Bowen: What leverage does the international community realistically have when countries like Russia engaging with the Taliban and are diplomatically recognizing them.

Shahrzad Akbar: I mean, it’s very devastating for me to say this. And but The reality is that This is a great moment for regimes like the Taliban. Not only russia’s recognition you see a president in the us that openly belittles international accountability mechanisms, attacks the International Criminal Court. And You know, this values the UN. N

Shahrzad Akbar: Kat’s funding to education and worldwide and to women’s rights worldwide. You see you see the emergence of far right here in Europe. You see Europeans having deportation deals with the Taliban, entering these conversations because of their own domestic needs. So this is a moment when many powers, not just the regional powers, are willing to look away.

Shahrzad Akbar: when there are issues of violations of women’s rights, when other interests take precedence, be it migration, be it security, be it counter and-narcotics, which is another issue that’s relevant, as you know, to the to the context in Afghanistan. And so sometimes it does feel like we are fighting.

Shahrzad Akbar: a losing battle. But what’s our what’s our strategy is really trying to build more people power, to reach out, to go beyond talking to the diplomats in these countries, to reach to associations, women’s rights groups, environmentalists. You know

Shahrzad Akbar: everyone who is invested in a better future for all of us and to say, we are very far away from you geographically, but this could happen here you know things could go bad and we should stand in solidarity with each other and what are the ways in which we can stand in solidarity with each other In addition to, of course, continuing to pressure the governments.

Dominic Bowen: yeah You were actually a delegate in some of the intra-Afghan talks in Doha between 2018 and 2021. And these were the same negotiations that convinced much of the world, not all the world, but much of the world, that this was going to be a much more moderate. A pro-woman.

Dominic Bowen: pro-human rights Taliban. When you were sitting in the room. Were there moments when you actually believe that this Taliban regime would be able to facilitate a better outcome for women.

Shahrzad Akbar: I mean, I sat down at Taliban in July 2019 in Doha. And I think not just for me, for all of us in that room, there was a common understanding that this is a superb PR.

Shahrzad Akbar: for Taliban.

Shahrzad Akbar: you know they are they have a top pr game i don’t know if they had been trained but they were using that opportunity to address issues to deliver remarks and address issues that they knew the international community cared about and afghans cared about like women’s rights and freedom of expression And they were making promises that were very, very hard to believe. And what it was for that reason that many Afghan women’s rights activists refused to believe them because we saw an action. I would document in the commission what was happening in Taliban-controlled areas to women and girls who were victims of violence, what was happening to women and girls who wanted to go to school. So that’s reality. The mismatch between Afghanistan and Doha was great. But they played a great PR stance, you know, in a sense. And I think the world was ready to be convinced. The war had gone for too long. Too many people had

Shahrzad Akbar: Had died, too many sacrifices had been made and US s wanted also an easy exit, a story that it could sell to its own population. So everyone was willing. There was a lot of willingness to believe. We all we even wanted to believe because we were sick of the bloodshed. Afghans were primarily the men.

Shahrzad Akbar: casualties were Afghan soldiers dying and Afghan Taliban dying every day of the week. So many coffins, so much bloodshed. So I think that was part of the kind of the fact that the conflict had also become so exhausting. Lulled everyone into this illusion that there might be some change.

Dominic Bowen: We know that at least 2 million Afghan girls have been affected by this ban on secondary education. We often discuss the human rights issues, and we do that on the International Risk Podcast, as do many other organizations.

Dominic Bowen: But I’d like to ask you about The economic. And the social impacts when there’s an entire generation of girls that are prevented from completing education.

Dominic Bowen: what happens to society what happens to the economy when they’re just completely shut out

Shahrzad Akbar: Well, I mean, the Taliban are literally burning Afghanistan’s future. They are literally ensuring that we remain dependent on international charity for many, many more years. Because imagine half of your

Shahrzad Akbar: The population is barely literate in and this age, in this day and time. You know, we will run out of surgeons, we will run out of engineers. We already don’t have enough educated Afghans to contribute to the country, men and women, because the education system is also

Shahrzad Akbar: horrific for men right now for boys as well the content of that education it’s extreme it’s just extreme interpretations of religion that’s being taught and you know You can’t have a whole nation of people who can recite Holy Quran but can do nothing else. Like that’s That’s not how you can run an economy. So it has

Shahrzad Akbar: far-reaching economic implications socially as well the other aspect is we talk about the ban on education we are not talking about the alternative education that the taliban are pushing which is through madrasas that they have established these religious schools that they have established and the anecdotes that i hear about from young girls who are exposed to these madrasas about their own view of their role in society, their place. You know, they essentially believe that they are they are made to serve men.

Shahrzad Akbar: and their lives and that it’s sinful to have other aspirations. You can think about the security implications of a view like this, not just the economic and social. And if you know.

Shahrzad Akbar: Give it another half a decade. It has only been half a decade, five years.

Dominic Bowen: Help me understand: we all bring our biases and I bring the bias of being always educated in the West. You know, I’ve been blessed to be able to travel all around the world and work all around the world. But I do bring a very Western perspective to most things that I analyze.

Dominic Bowen: But when I think if I became president of the world or president of a country, I would want the men and the women to be have all the human rights to be well educat-educated, to have access to health care, to access to sport. Yeah That benefit, even if I was just the most selfish dictator possible. It would be in my interests now.

Dominic Bowen: That’s what I’ve been educated and that’s what I’ve been told is good and I understand why that works. The Taliban clearly have a difference. View and a different perspective and that’s why they’re pursuing very different policies If we were speaking to the Taliban, How would they justify? What would be their argument as to why? Because it’s really difficult for many of us to understand.

Dominic Bowen: Why would you pursue a policy where your wives and your daughters and your sisters are subjugated and they’re uneducated and they’re unsocialized? You know Why would they pursue these policies? It just doesn’t make sense to so many people. Can you help us understand? Whether this is right or not, I think we all agree it’s not. But understand where are the Taliban coming from? What’s their motivation?

Shahrzad Akbar: Well, I think the Taliban supreme leader and the kind religious council around him were are all a bunch of older men who have themselves received a very specific madrasa education a madrasa education that was perhaps designed in and the years of anti-soviet war in this context of you know

Shahrzad Akbar: the world is out to get Islam and it’s our job to use our to use our religious education to then violently. Fights back, they- They come from a different worldview, first of all. But I think in their worldview, there are very specific responsibilities for men and women. And they are different. They are very different. And for women, the primary responsibility is to raise their children. Right to raise their children, to perhaps enough have enough religious education to know how to do their prayers properly, to obey their husbands. And in that perspective, when women are exposed to education, when girls are exposed to education, to higher education, then they become ambitious. They want things that they shouldn’t really want.

Shahrzad Akbar: from their perspective. They want a role in society. They want a role in public. They want more rights. They want equality in their marriage. So I think even looking at the Iranian experience where how the mullahs in Iran have struggled with the fact that now they have this amazing population of educated women, and this is the main counterforce to the Iranian regime, Taliban think

Shahrzad Akbar: Why should we do that to ourselves? If we allow the women in our country to get educated, they will be the they will be the biggest counter force to us they will try to challenge us even proper religious education would mean that they will challenge our interpretation of religion while all we want from them is to be at home and deliver.

Shahrzad Akbar: babies and raise them. So it’s quite different than kind of the sort of ration. I wouldn’t say It makes sense, I guess, in their rational, but the way we think about this linear thinking that we have about. Societies and how they should work and how people can contribute.

Dominic Bowen: And can you tell me, you obviously speak to women in Afghanistan most days. Talk to Talk to us and tell us, you know. Basic services. We’ve talked a lot about education, but and healthcare care for pregnancy, childbirth, domestic violence. What’s happening? What’s the situation? What are you hearing from women in Afghanistan today?

Shahrzad Akbar: So let me share the summary of some testimonies we have on healthcare, for instance. We had a testimony from a woman in her 50s. Who doesn’t have an adult male living with her. And she went to get healthcare care services. She went to a clinic and she was turned down. She was turned back from the clinic saying we can’t accept you we can’t see you the doctor can’t see you because you’re not accompanied by a man, by a male guardian. And so you are unable to receive services. I mean, imagine you have

Shahrzad Akbar: burning pain in a part of your body, there’s no man around to take you to the doctor, and you can’t receive those services. For women particularly women victims of domestic abuse a situation is really extremely difficult because many forms of abuse are not criminalized under the taliban law and their latest law

Shahrzad Akbar: only criminalizes the forms of abuse that cause physical obvious bruising or broken bones so you’re a woman who lives with an abusive husband or another family member he beats you up you have a broken bone now how do you get to the court how you get to the police you can’t go on your own you’re a woman you have to have a man accompanying you who is related to you so you have to convince a sympathetic family member a brother father to go with you to the police to the court, then you can’t even relay your testimony directly because everyone in the judiciary is male. So you have to relay it through this man who is accompanying you. Then your husband, if you’re proven, if you can prove that this has happened, in fact, and you have a broken bone, your husband will be in prison for 15 days.

Shahrzad Akbar: following which will come back home to live with you. Who will go? Who will go to the judge? Will you go to the judge, Dominic, if you lived under these circumstances? No one in their sane mind would do so. So it’s it’s It’s horrific.

Dominic Bowen: Your organization has been documenting violations for several years now. And When you step back and you look at the patterns and the trajectory. What do you see? What’s Afghanistan going to look like in 2031?

Shahrzad Akbar: I mean, I think we look at the Taliban and we see how they are ideologically driven. They are dogmatic. They are they have their own religious interpretation. And that’s quite obvious looking from outside, even knowing. About when the first time they were in power. What’s less obvious is how they have now adapted this machinery of the state, which was set up during the Republic.

Shahrzad Akbar: So skillfully. To implement these laws. To implement these views. First of all, they didn’t really gave out any laws when they were first in power. Now they have written bodies, they have written legislation. That they put out. So they have they are using this kind of modern lawmaking methods in a way to

Shahrzad Akbar: To and force. Their views on the population. They use the police force very effectively. They have their they have created their own ministry of promotion of virtue and prevention of vice.

Shahrzad Akbar: They use social media, they use the internet. And They use traditional media to push their ideas. So what we have seen is that what started with a few scattered decrees. And what some level of hesitance on the side of the Taliban to put them into writing has now transformed to not only written laws, but also state and institutions who are well resourced to enforce these laws and punish people, but also

Shahrzad Akbar: This sort of governance where you’re turning people against each other, for instance, a taxi driver can be beaten up if he carries a woman who is unaccompanied. A shopkeeper can be in trouble if he talks to a woman who is unaccompanied so

Shahrzad Akbar: A brother can be in trouble if her sister is not dressed appropriately in public. So kind of employing this, creating this really gender apartheid system where you’re employing men in the community, ordinary people in the community to enforce these restrictions on women’s rights. And the other pattern.

Shahrzad Akbar: which we spoke about earlier, is while all of this is happening, they are trying to normalize relations in the region and beyond the region. Ha- through having bilateral discussions and discussions that are driven primarily by their interests, rather than, you know.

Shahrzad Akbar: women’s rights, human rights. Oh. All of these things that we care for and push for.

Dominic Bowen: And I’m wondering about other countries. I mean One of the things that we’ve seen in the current political order is as countries, you know, like the Trump administration and their are new doctrines under the Trump 2.0. But I’m thinking about.

Dominic Bowen: how the Taliban ultimately their success and their ability to govern in a style that is largely considered not to be consistent with international humanitarian law or international human rights law I’m wondering about countries like Libya and Bangladesh, where women rights have also become fragile. I mean, if we look at Libya. You know Women have faced very significant discrimination within the family, but also within nationality laws. There’s definitely inadequate protection against domestic violence in Libya. There’s significant constraints on civil society.

Dominic Bowen: A couple of years ago, the interior minister in Tripoli announced a morality police.

Dominic Bowen: And, you know, this is about restrictions on women’s clothing, on interactions with unrelated men and travel without a male guardian permission. And in Bangladesh, it’s less severe than Libya and less severe than and Afghanistan. But there’s also still serious problems for women with violence against women remaining widespread, discriminatory laws persisting, child marriage is very prevalent still in Bangladesh. And recent political unrest in Bangladesh has disproportionately affected women and marginalized groups. So when you when you hear and see what’s happening internationally,

Dominic Bowen: Do you think some countries and some politicians and lawmakers are perhaps being empowered and motivated by the success? That the Afghan Taliban has had?

Shahrzad Akbar: Absolutely. I think the success of Taliban in Afghanistan has ramifications on several levels. On the government level, and not just kind of governments around the world or in the region who want to limit women’s rights.

Shahrzad Akbar: they see the impunity with which Taliban are treated and regarded. And that creates an opportunity for them to push for similar restrictions and know that the world, you know, that it wouldn’t get the outrage because something much more outrageous is happening right there in Afghanistan. It also sends messages to religious extremist groups or misogynist groups, I think, in the region and beyond about the value that the world, the international community puts on women’s lives.

Shahrzad Akbar: on women’s dignity on women’s rights that it’s not of if of equal value to main and in practice. And so that also can be very can really embolden these groups and inspire these groups.

Dominic Bowen: Hmm.

Shahrzad Akbar: The other worrying thing for me is that when we interact with some people in some Islamic countries, like but some last week I was speaking with a group of people from Indonesia, young people from Indonesia, or earlier in May I was in South Africa and visiting the Muslim community in South Africa, there are elements within these communities who think of the Taliban as Heroes!

Shahrzad Akbar: you know As people who have stood up to colonial forces, as people who have liberated Afghanistan, as people who have restored Islamic law and order, with a bit of envy even, like, oh, you know how look at these bros, how well are they doing? And that is extremely worrying because that further normalizes the fact that Taliban are stripping women of rights and dignity. And that sort of attitude and approach allows governments in these countries to then welcome Taliban, have a red carpet reception for them, accept their ambassadors. So part of our battle is trying to go to these countries and say, actually

Shahrzad Akbar: You know. Look closely, look closer, see what’s actually happening in Afghanistan to women and girls and to what extent it’s in line. Even with your religious beliefs.

Dominic Bowen: If we look at the other side of the coin, the opportunity and the resistance and the bravery shown by so many women in Afghanistan. What can the international community do? What can people listening to this podcast today do? We’ve got a lot of business leaders in North America and Europe listening to the podcast.

Dominic Bowen: Other than just Listening. Being empathetic. Praying. For these women and girls in Afghanistan. What can be done by the international community to actually support this spirit of resistance?

Shahrzad Akbar: Well, I think Afghan women are doing a lot of the work. It’s about amplifying and supporting those initiatives. There’s a lot of work going on in the field of online education. That

Shahrzad Akbar: great afghan organizations are working on you can just look them up online and support their work there’s afghan media who are running afghan journalists women journalists were running media outlets outside afghanistan but broadcasting news to afghanistan working with women short journalists inside the country support them read them follow their work it’s engagement with the members of parliament with governments asking them

Shahrzad Akbar: You know, Afghanistan, what’s happening there? What’s our policy? How are we are we helping the situation? Even asking this question, putting this on the agenda. And standing up or raising your voice against normalization of the Taliban and their policies.

Shahrzad Akbar: Taliban, like every other force of power anywhere in the world, can get legitimacy, recognition, etc. But it has to meet certain conditions. You know, it can’t imprison half of its population and still be welcomed and treated as normal. So I think standing up against it. Normalization. Just yesterday, a young Afghan woman educator, Shabana Basit Rasegh, was recognized as one of Time’s 100 Next. So there are a lot of incredible young Afghans around the world, themselves refugees, themselves in legal limbo sometimes, including in the U.S.

Shahrzad Akbar: supporting communities back home, supporting initiatives back home, and you can reach out and support them.

Dominic Bowen: Fantastic. Thanks for explaining that. And one question that we ask all guests on the International Risk Podcast is When you look around the world, what are the international risks that concern you the most?

Shahrzad Akbar: I think one of the things that really concerns me is this misinformation and this increasing inability also maybe because we are not That. Access to AI and awareness of it is not equal, this inability to separate fact fiction from fact, you know, increasingly. And this is why, for instance, the work of your podcast and other people who are trying to bring awareness comes in, because I think it’s harder and harder for normal people

Shahrzad Akbar: for most of us to sort out. What’s happening around the world really and critically. Come across information that is reliable. I’m also, of course, like everyone, worried about the environment and the climate change that’s affecting so many lives around the world. That’s impacting leading to conflicts, leading to mass. Mass displacement and I do worry about

Shahrzad Akbar: all the fact, what’s what’s what’s impacting our ability to work as collective in solidarity with each other? What are the risks? Those are the risks that i’m really interested in understanding better and confronting so that we can all work together for the world that’s that we want.

Dominic Bowen: Excellent. Thank you very much for explaining that. And thank you very much for coming on the International Risk Podcast.

Shahrzad Akbar: Thank you Dominic for having me.

Dominic Bowen: Well, that was a great conversation with Shahrzad Akbar, former chairperson of the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission and currently heading up an NGO that is really advocating for the rights of women and girls in Afghanistan. Today’s episode was produced by Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund. I’m Dominic Bowen, your host. Thanks very much for listening to the podcast and We’ll speak again in the next couple of days.