Episode 409: Inside Damascus: Is Syria Ready for Reconstruction?
Almost two years after the fall of the Assad regime, where is Syria heading? In this episode of the International Risk Podcast, producer and researcher Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund flips the script and interviews regular host Dominic Bowen, who joins from Damascus after a week of meetings with Syrian government ministries.
Dominic shares what he is seeing on the ground, from the professionalization of the police to rebuilt roads, and explains why the gap between a quick revolution and a long rebuilding process is the biggest misperception abroad.
In this episode:
– Why Syria is still a high-risk environment despite looking calm and inviting
– President Ahmed al-Sharaa’s leadership and the role of the transitional parliament
– Israeli incursions, regional rivalries and who has gained or lost influence
– Whether conditions are ready for large-scale refugee returns
– The reality of reconstruction, with an estimated $216 billion needed
– What investors and businesses should know about risk and opportunity
– Why Syria matters for European security, migration policy and counterterrorism
Episode Transcript:
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: My name is Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund, and I’m a producer and researcher at the International Risk Podcast. Today, I’m taking on the role of host. It’s a role reversal because the person who usually sits in this seat is now answering the questions. Dominic Bowen is the host of the International Risk Podcast, and today he joins us from Syria to discuss the ongoing transition and the country’s future. It’s been almost two years since the fall of the Assad regime, and Syria is in the middle of a fragile transition. Sanctions have been lifted and the West is warming to Damascus, but Israel remains inside Syrian territory, sectarian tensions persist, and armed groups are still part of the landscape. Today, we’ll explore where Syria is heading politically, how regional and global powers are competing for influence, how ordinary Syrians are coping, and whether reconstruction is a real opportunity or still too risky. We’ll also ask why it matters to governments, businesses, and humanitarian organizations around the world. Thank you for joining me, Dominic.
Dominic Bowen: Thanks, Andrea. It’s great to be here.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: You’re recording this from Syria. I’m curious what you think the gap is between what people abroad imagine and what you’re actually seeing on the ground.
Dominic Bowen: Yeah, thanks very much for asking that. And I think that’s an interesting question and one I ask many of our guests on the podcast. and I think. One of the things that I think all of us find quite surprising is how quickly you can overthrow a government. Now, this was a civil war that was going on for over a decade. But in practice, the overthrowing the Assad regime took probably a couple of weeks for the for the new government to take over. but building a professional police service, building an independent judiciary, having an armed forces that are accountable and ministries that are highly functioning, that takes years and decades. And that’s probably the biggest challenge facing Syria today. It’s not going ongoing security, although that is a big concern. But probably the biggest challenge is. The biggest misperception is that the revolution happened quickly, but rebuilding the country is going to take a very long time.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Yeah, and how would you assess the. security situation today? How have threats changed since? the Civil War years.
Dominic Bowen: I think the. you know the government under president ahmed al-shara is you know i’m i’m really impressed i was here about six months ago and even just the change but over the last six months is really significant there’s a transitional parliament there’s 210 members of the people’s assembly but most of the power still sits with the president And. you know and it’s your question you know the security situation is really It’s a high-risk country. It is insecure. And. there needs to be significant security sector coordination but you know to probably some other points we’ll discuss during the conversation today, you know, you can’t get improved Security without political legitimacy. You can’t get it without economic developments and reconstruction of society. So the security situation in different parts of the country, as you said, Israel is controlling large parts of the south. Today and yesterday, there’s been drones flying overhead, most likely Israeli drones. The drones themselves. Haven’t dropped any missiles, but the concern for many people is, are these drones ahead of a potential attack? Are these reconnaissance drones? you know what is the purpose of them being overhead? And then there’s still a lot of minority groups. You’ve got the Kurds, the Christians, the Jews, the Alawites. Obviously, you’ve got groups like ISIS. and you know this is all creating a little bit of insecurity right now in many parts of the country
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Yeah, definitely. I’m also curious because Alshara Hutt. did lead HTS and has past links to Al Qaeda. Do you think he’s the right leader at the right time as an interim president? And who else holds real power around him?
Dominic Bowen: That’s an awesome question. And that was something that I was speaking to a lot of people about when he took over. And you know interestingly enough, he was in Iraq at the same time as me. I was working for the US State Department, building capacity of the Iraqi government forces. He was in prison. He was in a US prison for terrorism. We ended up in Syria at the same time, several years later, me doing humanitarian work, him leading one of the rebel groups. And now he’s the president of syria so i had a lot of questions is did a lot of people and unquestionably he’s proved to be the right person for the job he is doing a fantastic job This week I met with the Ministry of Justice, I met with the Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of Interior, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. And. i’m really impressed i was concerned about what would the remnants of the assad regime look like what would the new people that have come into key ministries look like how would the bureaucracies function And. Obviously, it’s a concern when one person has so much control over an entire country which is the case here today but i unquestionably i’ve been really impressed with his work and i feel i feel optimistic about the future
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Yeah, I mean what’s impressing you most?
Dominic Bowen: I think the outward, you know, often when countries are going through this transition process, I spent a lot of time in Afghanistan, a lot of time in Iraq. I’ve spent a lot of time in Yemen and in South Sudan and Sudan. and reconstruction and development activities in nearly all of those countries has been abysmal or just a pure fail. There’s no nice way to put it. But here you can outwardly, not just inwardly see, and that was the benefit of a lot of the meetings i had this week of actually seeing inside meetings, some of the people running these ministries and looking at the bureaucracy. And that was, you know, it’s still not to the same standards you’d expect in London or Stockholm or Washington, D.C. But still operating well But it’s also the outward things that the community sees. You know, the roads, the road between Damascus airport and the city center has been completely redone. The billboards, the lights, the gardens. along it. you know the roundabouts you know might seem a little bit silly, but anyone that’s driven in the Middle East will recognize that the driving can be a little bit crazy and a little bit hectic here. And over the last, you know, 12, 13 years, the driving eight which is common in countries affected by war, the driving gets even worse. But just in the last six months, the way that the roundabouts operate and the way that the traffic police are now in a specific uniform, and they’re actually enforcing standards. Cars just can’t stop literally in the middle of the roundabout and take photos, which was happening six months ago. So I think the uniforms on the police is no longer. People just in civilian clothes and flip-flops standing at important government ministries. They’re all in the same uniform. They’re professional. And that outward professionalization and that outward improvement of infrastructure, I think, is the sort of thing, that the tangible thing that. that people that pay taxes or people that live here can actually see like, oh. Not only are the ministries better functioning, But outwardly, I can see. more order, more justice. better roads better electricity and those things are important if you live here
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Yeah, that is really interesting and very cool that you’ve been able to see that the like stark difference from the last time you were there to now I’m also curious about. You know, the UN and Damascus have been discussing elections Is the transition inclusive in practice? And what would make an election credible? to ordinary Syrians. including minorities.
Dominic Bowen: I think that’s. that’s it’s going to be a really challenging question because you know there’s there’s different ways to look at how functioning a society is. Now, of course, You know Citizens will judge it by have they got greater security? Have they got greater dignity? Have they got economic opportunities? Have they got education? Can they access healthcare? But at a slightly more macro level, you know, we do talk about concepts like inclusion and they’re not just esoteric concepts that we discuss at universities. These are things. That are really important to people. And these are these are topics that have come up this week. ends. I think this is going to be really important. There’s a lot of reconstruction that needs to occur here. I was in the Yarmouk and the Palestine refugee camp today. End. you know the level of destruction is beyond belief i mean it’s just complete destruction it is just complete destruction But people are still living in these ruins. Not everyone. And a lot of buildings are just simply impossible to live in. But some of the buildings that you and I would consider. impossible to live in people are living in and they’re they’re making do. So. But the government is attempting to do a lot of reconstruction and attempting to improve the services. People will start to look at what communities, what neighborhoods, what areas get these services first. is it the shia communities is it the sunni communities is it the christians is it the yellow whites Or is it generally inclusive? And as the government slowly moves over its five-year plan towards some form of elections and some form of democracy, how are the groups included and in the north Northeast of the country with the kurds you know the syrian democratic forces or a kurdish force they’ve now amalgamated with the syrian forces how genuine that is. and what positions of power the Kurds hold, how much autonomy they have. That’s all going to be a really telling story.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Yeah, definitely I’m also curious because the U.S. has dropped Syria from its terror list and the U.S. and the EU have lifted most sanctions. is the west embrace purely positive or does the warming with the west create somewhat of a backlash among former regime loyalists or people who simply distrust the West. in Syria.
Dominic Bowen: I’ve asked that question. I’ve asked that question a lot this week. Obviously, there’s a conflict raging in Ukraine. You know, Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine. the US and Israel are still fighting with Iran. And both those countries had a significant presence. in syria and were responsible for huge parts huge parts hezbollah an iranian-backed group was responsible for huge amounts most of the buildings that have been destroyed you know, before the Assam result. Before the Assad regime fell, were destroyed by Russian warplanes. And so many of the war crimes that occurred here were done by Russian and Iranian backed groups. So, you know, asking now when you when we’re all aware that Russia is attempting to stay involved in the country, still has military bases here. and you know we know that putin is for all of his faults, he is very good. At geopolitics and we see the way that he has played the US government. you know He gave you know the recent release of diesel and then a couple of days later, Ukraine loses its access to Starlink, which will cost. hundreds if not thousands of lives in Ukraine over the coming months. But i think the syrians after more than a decade of civil war are very pragmatic they prefer No Russian influence. They definitely don’t want any Iranian influence. Whether the US is regarded as a friend or not. is debatable. China, you know the amount of BYD cars you see everywhere is absolutely phenomenal. There is so many of the of the Chinese-made cars here. And I asked someone today, I said, what do you think of China? Is China a friend? Are they an ally? Are they an enemy? And the answer was quite telling. And the person I asked, he said, They’re a business partner. Their business partner. who happens to be a sleeping dragon. When the dragon wakes up, We’ll see what that means for Syria, which was which to me was a very Syrian way of looking at it. But. You know Syria, it’s no longer a battleground for the Assad regime. That’s that’s gone. And anyone who was pro-Assad. has well and truly kept their mouth shut on that if they’re not already in jail. Now it’s a country that’s focusing on restoring its sovereignty. and pursuing domestic objectives.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Yeah. and You know, we were talking about how Israel has expanded its presence in Syrian territory and carried out so repeated strikes. since Assad fell. Does Israel actually have? any interest in a stable Syria and can. And can a broader security arrangement exist while it refuses to withdraw?
Dominic Bowen: Yeah, I think Israel’s intentions in Syria are just. At its softest, you’d say disappointing. And at worst, you’d use much longer stronger language. I mean, just in September alone, for our listeners, just in September alone, there was over 230 military incursions. So it’s not just one or two tanks and a few Israeli soldiers. We’re talking about hundreds of incursions in September. And in October, that’s only increased significantly. As I said before, there’s drones flying over the capital of Damascus. Damascus Reef, which is like the countryside around Damascus City, has Israeli checkpoints. People are being arrested. When I was outside the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Earlier this week, there were protesters there who were protesting to the government to get the release of their family members who’d been arrest arrested by Israel. So Israel is arresting Syrians. on syria Syrian territory. And Syria is doing the right thing. They’re going to the UN Security Council. They’re pleading their case. but of course with some of the countries backing israel they’re not getting any momentum there so syria is trying to be a good global citizen they’re trying to be a good regional actor You know, they’ve they’ve said outwardly that, you know, they’re supporting the Saudis. They would like to see the Houthis, you know, be removed from power in Yemen. The Syrians are trying to be a good. Middle Eastern actor. But with these continued Israeli occupation and illegal invasions of Syrian territory. It makes things very, very difficult. But again, I’ve been very impressed with how the Syrian president is handling it. albeit he doesn’t have a lot he can do right now.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Yeah. And Israel is not the only country that has stakes here. I mean, Turkey, Russia, Iran, the Gulf States, and the U.S. all have stakes here. who do you think has gained most and who is lost and how can neighbors also be confident that this axis of resistance with Iran era is truly over.
Dominic Bowen: Is it truly over? I definitely think it’s too early to say that it’s truly over. I think one of the biggest winners here is Turkey. And to be honest, if we were to look at this from business terms, they deserve to be a winner. Turkey is probably the country that is consistently stood by the Syrian people. Many different actors have backed different armed groups over the years, but Turkey has consistently stood by the Syrian. people and Ankara, the capital of Turkey. unquestionably wants a stable centralized syria they want security along their southern but border and turkey’s influence over some of the institutions is most likely quite substantial You know, they’ll be quite concerned and watching very closely the integration of Kurdish forces. Obviously, Turkey has issues with the Kurds that live within its own borders. And they’ll be quite keen to see how they manage that. Moscow certainly lost. a lot of power. They lost their previous relationship with the government of Damascus when they gave asylum to President Assad. and his millions and millions of dollars. But its influence hasn’t. disappeared we know that Russia still maintains control of its military bases in Tartus and other locations They’ve been doing proposals for joint training arrangements, which of course will really concern the West. Iran definitely is a big loser. And rightly so. Again, the war crimes that Iranian back groups and Iran was participating in, they should be losing out of this relationship. The US has reduced its military footprint, which I think could probably influence the Kurds’ decisions to become integrated with the central government. I can’t help but wonder if the US missed an opportunity here as the US withdrew from much of the world. Under the more recent Trump administration and partly under the Biden administration, I think there was a lost opportunity here. The US was doing a lot to support Syrian people and Syrian opposition groups. from 2011 onwards. But I think in the last few years, you know they really took a backseat role. And I think that’s a shame. And I think they’ve lost the ability to positively influence. The democratic institutions in Syria when they desperately need this support. But the Europeans and the Gulf states and Saudi Arabia are definitely present. You can’t go to any of the ministries and not bump into a European Union delegation or a delegation from the Hague or a Saudi delegation that’s here to either capacity build, donate, assess you know the use of funds. So there certainly is a lot of interest here, and I think the Europeans and the Gulf states are keen to step in and support reconstruction.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: And what would what would the US gain from a. bigger presence there.
Dominic Bowen: Well, A stable Middle East is clearly good for everyone. We know that you know there’s a few things that are driving inflation globally, but also driving inflation in the US. Obviously, AI is one of them. But one of them is unquestionably that the price of diesel, the price of fuel, and a big part of that is obviously the US and Israel is a war on Iran. Bye. syria is also and historically has been a producer of fuel but also it’s a huge country it has been one of the most powerful countries in the region historically And if it can regain that position, which it should because of its geographic position, but also the size of its population and the high levels of education of much of its citizens. Syria should be a leader in this region and having a A country that has a leadership role that is aligned with. Western values, even if it has different values of its own. but it still agrees with peace. It still agrees with democracy. It still agrees with human rights. That is unquestionably in America and Europe and everyone else’s interests at the same time.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Yeah definitely. And I’m. Wondering Sort of more away from politics, how are ordinary Syrians coping with displacement and economic hardship and the like current uncertainty.
Dominic Bowen: I think. It’s quite interesting because Damascus, many but like Lebanon and many other countries in the region, it really is. very, very different from neighborhood. to the neighborhood. I mean, I can walk through central Damascus. The cafes are full of people, the markets are busy and life looks really, really. Normal bit. It’s not just what you see around you. There’s obviously very high likelihoods of various types of incidents and the consequences can be really dramatic depending on what they are. But you know the services the markets are fully stocked the you know the cost of food is reasonable but inflation is a significant concern here electricity, most people have electricity. They have access to water. It’s not necessarily great quality water, but they’ve got access to running water. Schools, universities are functioning. so The country is definitely moving in the right direction. One of the things I saw, which was yeah It was beautiful when at the Ministry of Justice. we were going through and we were looking at different floors of the building and the ministry of justice here in damascus is amazing not only Are they the ministry? But they’re also the court. And they’re also the training facility for bureaucrats that want to eventually work within the Ministry of Justice. So they’ve got these three hats they wear. And one of the floors we went to was their training floor where they train all the future bureaucrats. And we walked into a classroom of 50 or 60 people getting a lecture on a certain part of the bureaucracy. And this was just such a keen, friendly. welcoming group of people that you know everyone was very well dressed everyone was extremely polite You just don’t get that level of engagement and positivity when you walk down the main streets in Stockholm or Oslo, for example. So I feel really confident that the future will be good here, but the people are really going to demand. Services hospitals there are some very good private hospitals here there are some Okay. public hospitals. But unquestionably, the communities here know that it’s not the same services for anyone but everyone when it comes to health care, when it comes to education. And this is something the government. Amongst its huge list of priorities. is going to have to make sure people have access to because there are still huge levels of poverty and there is still very sick you can literally see if you look to the rest the left on one major road you’ll see beautiful buildings and cafes and you look to the other side of the road it’ll be a different community and a very different state of the buildings very different state of repair and those things need to become more level
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Yeah and that’s really interesting. There are also millions of Syrians that are still displaced and European governments are asking when refugees can go home. Do you think conditions are ready for large-scale returns? And what would people need to see first in terms of you know housing, services, security?
Dominic Bowen: Yeah, I mean, ultimately, the central measure of whether the government is successful here and whether people. can return and even should return to Syria is going to be ordinary civilians and ordinary Syrians. Are they safe? Can they live in a dignified way? Can they access their reasonable human rights? Have they got economic? opportunities. It’s it’s not just a matter of whether foreign governments are reopening their embassies and many governments here sorry foreign governments are reopening their embassies. But it are those things in place around security, dignity, economic opportunity and human rights? I mean, as you said, there’s still more than 1.5 million Syrian refugees living around the world. And I know many people in Europe and many people around the world listening to this might go, well, you know, those refugees can go home. Most of these refugees would prefer to go home. They would like to go home. No doubt they’re grateful and they really appreciate the hospitality shown by their host governments. But many of them miss Syria greatly. But there’s still 1.8 million people. Displaced within Syria. you know there’s sorry not 1.8 5.8 million people 5.8 million people within syria they’re internally displaced i mean these are huge numbers of people that can’t return to their to their homes so You know, the scale of poverty is extraordinary. Nine out of 10 Syrians, according to the United Nations Development Program, are still living in. Poverty and one in four Syrians. are unemployed. And, you know, these are these are really significant stats. When one in four Syrians are unemployed, when nine in 10 Syrians are living in poverty. You know forcing syrians to leave their host nations to come back here when they’re still massive levels of destruction, huge levels of poverty, and really large levels of unemployment. Doesn’t seem like the right thing to do. I think European and North American and other governments are right to be asking the questions. and to be looking at what can be done to support reintegration But. It’s not ready yet.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Yeah. And. Speaking of opportunities in Syria, I’m curious where you think the real opportunities and obstacles in rebuilding Syria are. What would you tell a business or investor weighing up the risk today?
Dominic Bowen: I think it’s it’s it’s it’s exciting. And you know to your last question, you know many Syrians are now returning, which is an important development. It’s an indicator I’d be looking at. when trying to assess, is this a country? I want to be investing in the fact that people are coming back in. The fact that people are working through property owner disputes, I mean, there’s still a lot of property owner disputes, as you can imagine, in a country that’s been affected by. by war. But. you know, when we talk specifically about opportunities i mean reconstruction is clearly a huge opportunity but also investment opportunities you know, many of the neighborhoods and the suburbs and the entire cities actually that have to be rebuilt. Require foreign investment. you know The Syrian government does not collect enough taxes to be able to pay for all this. The World Bank has an estimate of over 216. billion dollars for reconstruction. This is huge and you know for companies that can support foreign investment you know the opportunities is really huge you know The Syrians. have had an advanced economy for much of his existence and you know i think the opportunities in places like damascus like aleppo like latakia i like tartus you know are very high and i think yeah and the opportunities are quite significant here. You know if you can navigate the local challenges you know it is still a high-risk country There are a lot of security concerns here that businesses and foreign investors have to consider. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that they can’t invest. But they have to be aware of ownership disputes. They have to be aware of corruption. They have to be aware of, you know, transparency and how public-private partnerships work, the banking constraints and transferring money to Syria. And, of course. Thoroughly understanding the potential economic benefits to them as well but I’d say, you know, if there’s if there’s companies and foreign governments that are interested in supporting jobs and services and affordable housing and productive economic activity, there’s certainly opportunities here, huge opportunities.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: So I sort of take it from you that this sort of ongoing Damascus rebrand with new visa payment systems for example. and an English language account on X. That the substance sort of matches the signaling. Would you say that’s true?
Dominic Bowen: Yeah, I think there’s a really great way of putting it. The substance really does match the signaling.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Okay, yeah, I’m glad to hear that. And why should governments and migration agencies and humanitarian organizations and businesses in Europe and North America care about what happens in Syria?
Dominic Bowen: I think this is not just a humanitarian story. It clearly is a humanitarian story and it’s it’s a tragic one, but it’s also one that when we look forward is full of. full of hope but this impacts european security it impacts migration policy it impacts all of our economic interest And as I said before, Syria unquestionably is a significant player in regional stability. I mean, European governments. North american governments are increasingly engaging and talking about the topic of migration we saw it in sweden’s recent election we’re seeing it in german elections we’re seeing this already starting to be talked about in the upcoming french elections and how Syria can support the return of Syrians to Syria. is clearly going to be an important topic. But counterterrorism, I mean, ISIS remains operational in Syria. That’s just. black and white isis is still here and how isis evolves how ISIS can continue to recruit people, how ISIS continues to manage its resources, what happens with former fighters, current fighters, what happens with detainees, what happens when these detainees get released. This impacts clearly more than just Syria. The impacts are regional, but unquestionably global. And then of course, you know, how countries are investing. A strong and powerful Syrian economy is only good. for global trade. So I think there’s there’s so many positives coming out of this that it makes a very easy case for why we should be caring about what happens here.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Yeah I definitely agree. And I want to ask you as well, after your after your time in Syria, what are you continuing to learn about risk and leadership and international relations? and what has changed your mind.
Dominic Bowen: That’s a really interesting question. And it’s it’s one I regularly ask myself when I’m traveling. So many of these missions I do overseas, I do. by myself or I do with a small team and I’m assessing the conditions on behalf of a client. But sometimes I’m doing it with the client. I’m here to make sure that the client can access and can do what they need to do and you help to facilitate much of that dialogue through a variety of means. And one thing that I continue to see is. you know in the same way that many people including many ukrainians failed to accept that Russia was about to invade in 2022 and 2014. Many people, when they come to a high-risk environment, after a day or two, and we see the same in Ukraine, you can have 300 or 400 drones attack Kiev overnight. you know We can see the same in Damascus. There was a kidnapping less than 40 minutes from here last night. and You know, there’s been explosions about an hour or two away from the Capitol. And yet it’s very difficult for people to actually live and work in that environment even for a short period of time, and really internalize the risks. All they see is the cafes functioning, the transport, the little kids kicking soccer balls, teenagers selling balloons on street corners, fully stocked supermarkets and markets. And meeting with gu government ministries that are. friendly and welcoming and functioning to a reasonable level so it’s always difficult to you know balance that this is a high risk environment it looks c safe. It looks wonderful. It looks inviting. It’s a country where everyone wants to come back to. But it’s not a low risk environment. I think that’s one thing that I’m both internally myself, I have to continually remind myself as an advisor to people. but also how you convey that messaging to people that are going to be traveling here. You can travel here. You can be safe here. But it is still a high risk environment.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Yeah, I mean, do you feel safe when you’re there?
Dominic Bowen: That’s a great. question My risk tolerance is a little bit different. And I often use this example when I’m running workshops for clients about risk tolerance. i’m I’m quite comfortable in high risk environments. I feel better. I operate well when I’m in a high risk environment. Yet, if you put me on a train in Stockholm in the middle of winter. I will, my blood pressure will be through the roof, you know, a pack train, sick people, coughing, dirty, you know, that for me is quite stressful. operating in Damascus. is something that I’m comfortable with. But in saying that, unquestionably, there are there are times during these trips where you’re like, ooh. Is this okay? I don’t fully understand what’s happening. And some of it could be cultural, but of course, some of it could be an insecurity. It could be the way cars are behaving. It could be the way traffic is occurring. It could be a change in the scenery that just happened all of a sudden. or the way that people are behaving all of a sudden. It could be someone that approaches the car or approaches you. And often these things take a little bit of time to, you know, fully understand what’s actually occurring. and So there’s certainly been a few times on this trip where I’ve been like, oh, okay, I’m on. I’m on full alert here paying attention to what’s happening. where the exits are. where my client is, what we need to do if something happens. But then there’s been other times where I’ve been as relaxed as if I was sitting on a beach drinking a pina colada. So it’s it’s been a bit of a mixed bag, but it is a beautiful country. notwithstanding the fact that he’s still high risk here.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: That’s very interesting. And I think lastly, I want to ask you where do you see the future how do you see the future of syria what do you predict for the next five to ten years
Dominic Bowen: The next five to 10 years? I think that’s a really interesting question. You know, Whilst the normality is certainly misleading and in many regards. You know, the cafes, as I say, I think that is going to bring some really positive. development to you And as more Syrians return, they’re going to bring with them the things that they’ve learned from North America. They’re going to bring with them the things they’ve learned from Europe. Some of that will be around business. Some of it will be around culture. And I think that blending of cultures is generally a beautiful thing. I’m brought up in Australia, which is. one of the most heterogeneous countries you know globally you know My first year of primary school, I was the only typical Australian in the class. Everyone was from Syria and China and Thailand and Timor-Leste and Lebanon and Greece and Italy and that continued right throughout my schooling and I growing up thinking that’s a really beautiful thing and I think That’s a great thing for Syria too, as people bring back new business ideas, new way of working, new business opportunities. And you see that in some of the cafes here. Some of them are very traditional Syrian, but some of them are much more Western. And it’s fun to see the blending of all these concepts. So I think there’s a lot of possibility. i think the economic opportunities and the maturing opportunities are really positive here But I think that the thing that I think is going to be really critical is just that. As the Syrian government you know has got more and more international recognition, that doesn’t necessarily equal domestic. legitimacy you know as the Swedish government, the Norwegian government, the Belgians, the UK, and so on and so forth, a reopening consular office, opening embassies, supporting investment agreements. These are all really important, but the Syrian government. has to still earn trust with its constituents. They have to provide security. They have to provide impartial justice. They have to provide inclusive administration and they have to deliver public services. I think. I feel cautiously optimistic that’s going to occur. But that’s something that, you know, time will tell. And then finally. you know, if the if the government can continue to professionalize their security services. and they can continue to reduce the number of attacks from criminal groups and extremist groups, then I think, again, the future should be really positive.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that with me. It’s been really great to hear what you have to say about where Syria is heading politically and how regional and global powers are competing for influence and how ordinary Syrians are coping. So thank you.
Dominic Bowen: Thanks very much for the conversation. And what’s been your, you’ve obviously done a lot of work in the preparation for this conversation. What’s been some of the things that have surprised you as you’ve been digging a little bit deeper, not just the headlines that you and everyone else reads every day, but as you’ve been doing research on this, what are some of the things that have surprised you about Syria?
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: I mean, I think similarly to you, I think it’s been a positive surprise to see the direction that they’re going in. I think it is such a fragile transition period. But it seems like they’re making great strides. So that’s been great to see. and Yeah.
Dominic Bowen: Yeah. no i totally agree with you i think it’s it’s really exciting So thanks very much for the conversation. And thanks very much for the great questions, Andrea.
Andrea Crafoord-Wiklund: Thank you.
