Episode 280: The Role of Organised Crime Groups in The Amazon with César Muñoz Acebes

Coordinated and Produced by Elisa Garbil

Today we dive into the role of organised crime groups in the Amazon with César Muñoz Acebes! Dominic and César discuss the complexity of the crisis, the environmental destruction and the role of organised crime in this destruction, drug trafficking, illegal activities, the impact on local communities, global risks,  and more!

César Muñoz Acebes is the Brazil director at Human Rights Watch, where he supervises research, advocates for foreign and domestic policies that promote human rights, and leads fundraising efforts in Brazil. Before his current role, he served as America’s senior researcher and later associate director. In those capacities, he researched and wrote reports and articles, produced videos, and conducted advocacy on human rights abuses linked to illegal deforestation, police abuses, inhumane prison conditions, political persecution, and unchecked domestic violence, among other issues, in several Latin American and Caribbean countries. César has appeared as a human rights expert on many different broadcasters, and he has published opinion articles in The New York Times, Foreign Policy, Foreign Affairs, amongst others.

The International Risk Podcast brings you conversations with global experts, frontline practitioners, and senior decision-makers who are shaping how we understand and respond to international risk. From geopolitical volatility and organised crime, to cybersecurity threats and hybrid warfare, each episode explores the forces transforming our world and what smart leaders must do to navigate them. Whether you’re a board member, policymaker, or risk professional, The International Risk Podcast delivers actionable insights, sharp analysis, and real-world stories that matter.

Dominic Bowen is the host of The International Risk Podcast and Europe’s leading expert on international risk and crisis management. As Head of Strategic Advisory and Partner at one of Europe’s leading risk management consulting firms, Dominic advises CEOs, boards, and senior executives across the continent on how to prepare for uncertainty and act with intent. He has spent decades working in war zones, advising multinational companies, and supporting Europe’s business leaders. Dominic is the go-to business advisor for leaders navigating risk, crisis, and strategy; trusted for his clarity, calmness under pressure, and ability to turn volatility into competitive advantage. Dominic equips today’s business leaders with the insight and confidence to lead through disruption and deliver sustained strategic advantage.

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Transcript:

César Muñoz Acebes: [00:00:00] None of them can say, look, it’s clean. Because they don’t control the suppliers. They only have control over the direct suppliers, but those direct suppliers buy from others. So that’s a huge reputational issue for any company that will supermarket in France, that is from a company. That supplies from the Amazon right now.

Elisa Garbil: Welcome back to the International Risk Podcast, where we discuss the latest world news and significant events that impact businesses and organizations worldwide.

Dominic Bowen: Hi, I’m Dominic Bowen, host of the International Risk Podcast, and today we’re joined by Cesar Munoz. He’s the Brazil director at Human Rights Watch, Where he supervises research advocates for foreign and domestic policies that promote human rights, and he leads fundraising efforts across the country.

Before his current role with Human Rights Watch, he served as the America’s senior researcher and later associate director also with Human Rights Watch. In those capacities, Cesar’s researched and written reports and articles. He’s produced videos and conducted [00:01:00] advocacy on human rights abuses, linked to illegal deforestation, to police abuses, inhumane prison conditions, political persecution, and even unchecked domestic violence.

He’s appeared as a human rights expert on many different broadcasters, and he published opinion articles in the New York Times in Foreign Policy, foreign Affairs, and many. Others in our conversation with Cesar today, we really hope to gain a good insight on the protection of the Amazon, in particular, focusing on organized crime, how supply chains can be tainted with abuses, environmental destruction, and what this means for business leaders and policy advisors around the world.

Cesar, welcome to the International Risk Podcast.

César Muñoz Acebes: Thank you. It’s a pleasure being here.

Dominic Bowen: Cesar, I’d love to hear from your really central vantage point, talk about the convergence between crime in the Amazon. What does it look like on the ground and what’s changed in recent years? It’s, it’s more than just an environmental story today.

It’s much more complex, isn’t it?

César Muñoz Acebes: Yes, absolutely. I think, you know, I see it. Not [00:02:00] just as an environmental sort of crisis in the Amazon that we are seeing, but a human rights crisis. and you know, I think sometimes people have this idea that the rainforest is being destroyed because there are these small farmers who need to make a living and they’re cutting, to plant, you know, the little plots and, and that’s not actually what is destroying the forest.

you need. Capital is big business to destroy the, the rainforest. just to explain a little bit the dynamics of what typically happens in the rainforest in, in the Amazon, usually you have a pristine area. usually owned by the, by the federal government, which owns large swats of, all land, or it might be indigenous territory.

And sort of these groups will come in, with, you know, tractors, chainsaws. a lot of you know, people who are hired to do that, come in and cut the most valuable, timber in the, in the area. They will pull it out and then they will destroy the rest. I mean, they’ll just cut it down, leave it on the ground, let it dry, and then burn it.

And then that [00:03:00] land then becomes, cattle branches usually. so these groups that are responsible for, that are organized crime. I mean, there are these networks that operate in the rainforest that are involving in illegal logging. then the transport of the timber through roads requires permits.

So there is an element of corruption there to get the permits. Then, the land is sold illegally. there might be illegal mining as well in those areas. So it’s a complex web of, different illegal activities that are carried out by these, organized crime groups.

Dominic Bowen: I think it’s a really interesting sentence.

You caar when you said it’s big business to destroy the Amazon. It’s a, it’s a really interesting juxtaposition and we know that there’s that intersection of diverse criminal activities. The drug trafficking, the illegal mining, the illegal logging lands, grabbing corruption, money laundering, and sadly, often violence.

Often occurs simultaneously and it reinforces each other in the same locations. And there’s lots of evidence about how these criminal networks, land grabbing and they’re using the timber, [00:04:00] the gold and, and catalyst, almost this integrated, multi-pronged business. Can you tell us how these groups in reality, you know, whether they’re cartels or local actors, how are they actually operating?

What do their business models look like? What does it mean for the local communities, and the people living in these areas?

César Muñoz Acebes: Well, I mean, it depends on the area. I mean, the Amazon is just huge. I mean, it’s just, thousands and thousands of, of, square miles. So the sort of the, the situation at the border with, you know, Brazil, Colombian, Peru is different from other areas, right?

basically because of the source of money is different. So at that border, the main sort of incentive is drug trafficking. So bringing cocaine from Peru and Colombia through the rivers in the Amazon through the air as well, because it’s, it’s not very well patrolled and there are illegal, landing spots, across the, the Amazon, right?

But that sort of drug trafficking is intertwined with other illegal activities like illegal fishing or illegal mining. I mean, for example, To reach the areas of illegal mining [00:05:00] you often need, to travel by, air, right through small planes that you can use the small planes as well to, to carry, drugs, right?

So we have seen an increase in drug trafficking in the Amazon because of that infrastructure that was there to carry out environmental crime in other areas of the Amazon. So the presence of drug trafficking is not as prevalent because they’re far from the borders. And there, what I’ve seen, in the Amazon in February in an area around Alameda, which is a, a large, sort of, it’s, well, not, not a large city.

It’s a large municipality. It’s like 1000 kilometers across. So it’s, it is huge. It’s it’s bigger than Spain actually. Just this, this municipality and there. I will describe it as a network of. criminal groups, right? So there are groups that operate in an area that do mostly the logging.

Others then, sort of specialize in the illegal cattle ranching and they’re connected, So that’s sort of the scenario. And you mentioned something that is really important, which is sort of was the impact on people on the ground, [00:06:00] right? Because this has an impact on everybody because of their trafficking and climate change and all that.

But the people who are most affected are those who live there. And, imagine you are a small community making a living in, in one of these areas, these illegal criminal groups. part of the business model is to threaten and attack people who live there because you witness the legal activities.

So there is a risk that you could report that to the police. So the legal groups, I mean, everywhere. intimidate and threaten local residents, and if they speak up, they’re killed.

Dominic Bowen: So obviously the, as you just said, if they speak up, they’re killed. The threat of violence and the actual perpetration of real violence is a big deterrent. You also mentioned earlier on the corruption from some officials, maybe security services. It’s quite hard. I think we all, we all know, we’ve all been taught, we’ve all heard about the size of the Amazon Forest.

Some have been blessed enough to actually see the Amazon Forest, but not withstanding that, I mean illegal airstrips roads, ports, supply hubs, you know, cattle [00:07:00] ranching. These are huge projects. These are not just small little activities. It’s hard to actually fathom, how these occur. I mean, Brazil is a, is a developed country.

I mean, we’re, we’re talking about the powerhouse that, that Brazil is today. It’s obviously one of the leading members of the bricks. How does this occur today? Is there something else that we are missing? Or is it just simply corruption? ’cause it’s, it’s hard to fathom the size of these operations and the huge risks they present.

Of course they’re offering significant opportunities to criminal actors, but it, it’s hard to work out how these actually get set up and how they’re maintained.

César Muñoz Acebes: Yeah, I mean, it’s a good question. I think, when you go to these places, there is often very little state presence, right?

So large areas without. significant police and prosecutors. So that’s definitely a challenge for, Brazil. but there is more that can be done. Absolutely. Yes. and I’ll give you, a very important example, which is cattle. Cattle is the main driver of deforestation, because.

when you cut down the rainforest, most of the land then is used for cattle ranching, the land in [00:08:00] many areas is too poor for crops. Really. So you do cattle ranching, which is very unproductive. So you have few heads of cattle there, the area. So it’s just a disaster.

but that cattle is sold. I mean, that’s the key, right? You can have the cattle there for free. It is not your land is, and then it enters the, the legal supply chain, right? And that’s where Brazil needs to get this up together. Because there is a very easy way to prevent that, which is to control every head of cattle in the country.

And that can be done, you know, you need traceability for capital in Brazil. And that has not happened because mostly opposition from gro business in the country. so there is, that political dimension, you know, the influence in Congress and all that, but it has to be done.

And if you do that, then you eliminate, a huge economic incentive for the instruction of the rainforest.

Dominic Bowen: And so I’d like to speak to you specifically about the incident involving the murders of Dom Phillips and, and Bruno Perreta. Now, that was in June, 2022. And you know, [00:09:00] it was in a remote valley and it was a targeted attack against these, what many people are calling defenders of the Amazon. And I think this incident, you know, highlights the extreme risks facing journalists, indigenous rights advocates.

And just local communities that are in the areas that are dominated by organized crime. And you know, I, I wanna highlight that, that Dom Phillips, he was a British journalist researching a conservation book. And, Bruno Pereira was a respected, really well respected Brazilian expert on both indigenous affairs.

And they were both working to protect the rainforest and to protect and advocate for, for local communities. They were ambushed, they were shot, and they were killed by local fishermen, fishermen. With, as you spoke about before, with ties to organized crime. Now this incident was, was shocking and it was, was saddening, but I, I think you’ve said previously, Cesar, that these weren’t isolated targets.

This is just a symptom, a very tragic symptom, but a, a symptom of this capture of communities and, and silencing of voices. How are these criminal groups maintaining control and, and how are they so powerful?

César Muñoz Acebes: Yeah. so I knew [00:10:00] Dom well. so this was really heartbreaking for me on a personal level. Dom, a wonderful human being and, and a great reporter.

So I was really saddened by what happened, the killing of Dom and Bruno. Was unusual. In unusual in a way because it got so much attention. Mostly probably because Dom was killed ’cause he was a British reporter. but unfortunately, as you said, it is not isolated. most people who are killed in Amazon are local residents who either reported illegal activities or threatened to report them.

and I’ll, I’ll give you, you know, a little example. There is a community called TE Osa, which is in the middle of para state. And this area is settled by small, farmers, that were, you know, placed there by the government. and it’s intended as a sustainable development, project. So they have small plots, and when it was created, there was this huge rainforest there.

That they could go and collect, nuts, Brazil nuts, which are [00:11:00] very valuable. and so that was sort of the intention of this project. But what happened is that these criminal groups enter the area, cut down the forest, put cattle there, they do illegal mining right now. and then they threatened the residents.

And so in 2018, they killed three people there. I know this case well because I, I was researching a, a report at the time and, and this was one of the cases we used in the report. I interviewed the people who lived there, and talked to the police and prosecutors about the cases. And, what happened was that the, murders were not properly investigated.

And that’s sadly what happens everywhere in the Amazon, you know, people get killed. And, uh, so the police that are. task with investigating these crimes. Are local police in these remote areas, where the local elites are the criminal groups. The landowners, quote unquote, are the ones that are, you know, influential that get the, the major elected and so forth.

So there’s all this pressure not to investigate cases, and so there is huge impunity. For these [00:12:00] violence. the case on Doman, Bruno, going back to that is also unusual in that sense because there was so much attention that the state did put resources into the investigations. And so there have been, there prosecutions, there is that effort, but that doesn’t happen in other cases.

Dominic Bowen: And I wonder, these, these high profile incidents, obviously, you know, very tragic, what happened to, both of these men? But I’m wondering what it means for local communities. ’cause as you said, most of the people that are killed and are threatened, intimidated their lives are disrupted both by threats and violence from organized crime, but also just the destruction to the land and the livelihoods.

So I’m wondering what does this mean for indigenous communities? If you can help our listeners understand, what does this look like for indigenous communities, for defenders who are living and working on these front lines, what does, what does that mean for them on a daily basis?

César Muñoz Acebes: That’s a great question.

So I’ll give you another example. as I mentioned, I was in the Amazon in February, last February. I went to a community called caca. So dry rain focal be. caca it takes, one and a half days by boat [00:13:00] to reach, from Altamira. So it’s very remote. It’s very large. There are three villages there of indigenous people who were contacted only in the eighties.

So there are people there who were born, uncontacted by, people outside of the community. and I went to this village and. It’s under seed. I mean, it is just surrounded by these cattle ranches. I mean from the village. You can hear the chainsaws. So these people, you know, they have these sustainable way of life.

They have small plots around the village where they have pumpkins and a few other things. They fish and they collect nuts. And they told me, look, we used to go hunting for several days During these hunt, like we slept, they go asleep in the forest. Everybody comes, you know, older people come and the children come and we explain to our children, about the forest, you know, these tree is used for that.

That one is for the other one. This, it is very valuable knowledge, that sustains their [00:14:00] culture and they cannot do it anymore. They cannot go on these hunting trips anymore because they are surrounded by. By the cattle ranches. So the impact is incredibly, heartbreaking, because they’re physically under threat and, and culturally under threat.

Now, there, there is obviously a role for the state. The state has to take over the areas that are being invaded by the ranchers and expel them. And, I was in the ranches. I mean, this, everybody knows, I mean, you, you look on the satellite, you see them. So the issue is that the state has done that in the past and the sort of these, illegal groups come back, you know, the ranchers come back because there is no state presence there.

So you can spell them today and, you know, in a few months they’re, they’re there again. That’s why. You need the control of the supply chain. You have to make it impossible for them to sell the cattle. That’s the way to do it. And of course, you have to have presence of the state. You have to have police. So in this area that is very large, you have to have, police station the entrance of the, of the territory in a couple of places so you can control [00:15:00] it.

Dominic Bowen: you mentioned supply chains and, we’ll, we’ll come back to that Cesar, ’cause I think that’s a, a really important point. But if we, if we look at multinational companies, if we look at board members and executives and European and US companies, they’ll often think about the Amazon and the Amazon’s deforestation as, a reputational issue for NGOs or an issue for activists.

I think the research and some of the research your team’s been leading, but certainly research from other places as well, that shows that the risk and the structural risks to multinational companies, to European, to US companies operating in Brazil is multifaceted and it’s real. It’s around climate change.

It’s around legal exposure. Reputational damage is unavoidable, but there’s things like modern slavery and, and of course there’s even operational displacement that they need to be considering. Which of these do you think CEOs and business leaders should be losing sleep over first?

César Muñoz Acebes: Look, right now, for example, the cattle supply chain in Brazil is stated, no company can say those who that, that operate in Amazon, right?

None of them can say, look, it’s clean. Because they don’t control the [00:16:00] suppliers. They only have control over the direct suppliers, but those direct suppliers buy from others. So that’s a huge reputational issue for any company that will supermarket in France, that is from a company.

That supplies from the Amazon right now. there has to be pressure from the buyers, from the importers of meat or from Brazil on the multinational companies that operate in Brazil to clean up the, the supply chain. And as I said, this is not even an issue of cost in my view, because it’s not that complicated and it’s not that expensive.

It’s a, an issue of being willing to do it. It has other sort of benefits because if you actually control every head of cattle, where it was born, what type, then the control of their sanitary conditions is better as well. You have any outbreak of disease, then you’re gonna identify the farm immediately, and that cannot be done right now because they don’t have.

Individual sort of traceability. So that, in my view, has to be done. And as [00:17:00] I said, you know, these farms that operate in, in protected areas, for example, that are illegal farms, they are not, even economically interesting for Brazil. there is no incentive for the person who controls the land to invest there increased productivity because they are not really the owners.

They’re, invaded the land and there is that uncertainty about ownership. So, I think Brazil will be much better. you, Having better control over, the head and incentivizing investment for those who have like the legal title of the land.

Dominic Bowen: And you’ve been really critical of supply codes of conducts and Periodic audits and I think there’s a, a lot of, validity behind that. I think a lot of companies, European companies, north American companies that I work with will often rely when I ask ’em about their governance and their supply chains and they’ll say, well, we have really robust codes of conduct.

But having internal and external audits is a really great way to verify that bit. From what I understand from you and some of your research, a lot of these approaches fail in the Amazon context. Can you talk to us about what does [00:18:00] realistic due diligence, what should companies that want to be doing the right thing, that don’t want their reputation damaged, they don’t want to be contributing to negative or climate change full stop.

They don’t want the legal exposure. What should they be doing to make sure that, you know, their engagement with Brazil and in Brazil? Is ethical and is consistent with, good moral human rights obligations.

César Muñoz Acebes: Yeah, I mean I think they have a lot of power as the buyers of products that are produced in the Amazon to change the reality on the ground in a way that uphold human rights and protects people.

Right. so they have to use that power and that power is to pressure suppliers in the Amazon. there has to be that control over cattle, but other commodities as well. You know, gold is mine. In the Amazon, there is an estimation that about half of it is Illegal mine, gold, So there is there a range of products where. clearly illegal activity in the Amazon. That, and that, product that is illegally sort of produced is entering the supply chain. So there is that [00:19:00] pressure from outside, but there is a role for Brazilians as well.

I mean, definitely Brazilian companies. the government, is taking some steps. So for example, the government of, of para state, which is, the state that has the highest deforestation in the Amazon is, working on a project to have traceability for cattle, So that’s a very good news.

The big sort of challenge is implementation because If you create the program, you have to monitor and oversee what’s happening and that there Brazil is failing. you know, in this area that I mentioned, caca. So all the logging, there is only one road in that area, I went there through the river, but there is a road, which is the TransAm Amazon, the TransAm, Amazon Road.

The timber is going through there. The thing is that there are no controls on the road. I mean, if you had, police controlling the timber trucks, then that will be helpful. You could still sort of have fraudulent papers, but if you don’t even check, that’s even worse. Right. So these, as I said, there is a stress ability project in Para and, and [00:20:00] I think, which is great and we applaud it.

We met with, the team that is putting it together. It has to be, enforced. Now, this is para at the federal level. There is also an effort to have traceability, but the deadline for the implementation is 2032, which is, I mean, it’s too far among seven years. You need seven years. I mean, this is a problem that we’ve known for decades, and you still need another seven years to implement it.

And, and you know, I have, I fear. What happens often in Brazil is that you have, you know, a new law, a new project, and it’s not implemented, by the deadline, and it’s just postponed and postponed forever. So there has to be a sense of urgency to really, have better control over the, of the economic, activities in the Amazon.

Dominic Bowen: But in practice, I mean, you talked about the violence, it’s, it’s not incidental. we know it’s how these markets actually operate. Without the threat or the actual conduct of violence, many of these, legal operations would start to fall apart. But I wonder what does that mean for, for companies? What does it mean for even your researchers who are trying to audit and [00:21:00] verify whether it’s, what’s occurring in these areas or verify that supply chains and and supplies are, are ethical?

Where there is this risk of violence. You know, I’ve got clients that are, that are working across, Latin America and the auditors are, are regularly just simply saying we cannot, it’s too risky. Now, I, think there are ways to do it, but I’d love to hear from you when your researchers, for example, are, are trying to verify this information, how do you do that in environments where violence is such a very real threat?

And as you said, you know, your friends and and colleagues have actually been killed.

César Muñoz Acebes: yeah, there is an issue of violence and threats there. we travel to the Amazon, we have our security plans and all that. Are are difficult because these are very remote places.

You know, if something happens to you, it’s not that you can call a phone number and they don’t have a helicopter. So, I mean, there, there is a level of risk when you work in the Amazon. Yeah. That, that’s, that is gonna, it’s gonna happen. I think, the people who are more at risk. Are human, researchers like us.

It’s the people who stay there, who are there, the people who talk to us. [00:22:00] So that’s the real sort of danger. we have been, uh. calling on the state to, strengthen protection measures that Brazil has a protection mechanism for people at risk. Most of them who are on this sort of program. the risk related to land and environmental crime, actually, and so there are measures like, uh, police protection, having access to sort of a prosecutor, for example, having on the, on your cell phone.

Now when you attack sort of the sources and the roots of the threats and the violence, that’s what will be more effective, most effective. And I’ll, you know, go back to an example. So osa, this community that I described before of small farmers who had these sustainable sort of, project.

we’ve been pushing the authorities to evict the invaders for years. I talked to the Attorney General about this. So Brazil, you know, to several ministers and Brazil created a working group to carry out those evictions, so that’s the way to go because the problem for that [00:23:00] community is that the sort of the, these criminal groups that have, are men in the, in the territory.

Are there. I mean, so the way to protect them is to spell these groups right, which are illegally there. that’s complicated, but can be done.

Dominic Bowen: Yeah. It’s certainly a complicated, picture. and I know the work that human Rights Watch, especially in Brazil, is, you know, you’ve, you’ve been documenting, researching, engaging with communities that have been living with this fear, living with the threats, living With the death of, colleagues and I, I know you released a report, I think it was 2019, that, you know, described the killing of two people. after they expressed their intent to denounce a illegal logging that was occurring in their area. Then a third person vanished, and then the brother of one of the victims who was trying to investigate the crime was also killed.

I mean, this just tragic and it just doesn’t stop. So the work that you are doing is, just so Im important, Cesar. So thank you for the work that you and your colleagues are doing. When you look around the world, Cesar, and you, you see so many things going on in Brazil, but also more broadly across the region and globally, what are the risks that concern you the most?

César Muñoz Acebes: Well, that’s a broad [00:24:00] question. yeah. I dunno. I mean, I think climate change is, has to be top of, the list for everybody, and is very closely related to the work we’re doing in Amazon because the Amazon is a key answer, and a key ecosystem for the, for the regulation of climate around the world.

there, I don’t wanna sound. totally pessimistic. I mean, the deforestation in the Amazon has been going down, in the last few years. bra Brazil had, president Ja Bolsonaro for four years, who was absolutely terrible for the Amazon. He. Gave basically, effectively gave green light for the destruction of the rainforest and deforestation spiked tremendously.

now there is a new government that expressed, sort of its commitment to, protect the rainforest and the forestation rate has. Decrease by half. So it’s, it’s a success story, but more can be done. And, you know, we discussed that, you know, how Brazil can do better to, protect the rainforest. [00:25:00] another trend that really worries me is the undermining of international law and international humanitarian law.

I mean, we see it in conflicts around the world. an attack on multilateral, institutions and the rule of law, whether, it’s in Gaza or Ukraine or other, places, that is a concern because we are going back to a world where, those who are powerful can do whatever they want and they are not, restricted by, human rights and international law.

Dominic Bowen: Thanks very much for explaining that, Cesar. I, I appreciate

your insights there, and thank you very much for coming on the International Risk Podcast and, and giving that insight.

César Muñoz Acebes: Thank you. It was a pleasure.

Dominic Bowen: That was a really great conversation with Cesar Oz. He’s the Brazil director at Human Rights Watch, and I really appreciated hearing his thoughts on the difficulties of protecting the Amazon, the international risks, the role of organized crime, and the implications for business leaders and policy makers around the world.

Please make sure you go to the International Risk Podcast website and subscribe to [00:26:00] our mailing list to ensure you get our newsletter every second week in your inbox. Today’s podcast was produced and coordinated by Elisa Garbil. I’m thanks very much for listening and speak again soon.

Elisa Garbil: Thank you for listening to this episode of the International Risk Podcast. For more episodes and articles, visit the international risk podcast.com. Follow us on LinkedIn, blue Sky, and Instagram for the latest updates, and to ask your questions to our host, Dominic Bowen. See you next time.