Episode 261: The Houthis as The New ‘Axis of Resistance’ with Nadwa Al-Dawsari

Coordinated and Produced by Elisa Garbil

Dive into the intricacies of the Houthis with Nadwa Al-Dawsari! Nadwa and Dominic discuss the background of the Houthis, where they come from, what their ideology is, what influence they have, economical and geopolitical implications both for Yemen and the world, how they currently govern Norther Yemen, what the international response should be to the Houthis, and much more!

Nadwa Al-Dawsari is a veteran researcher, conflict analyst, and policy advisor with 20 years of field experience in Yemen and the broader Middle East. Currently, she serves as an Associate Fellow at the Middle East Institute (MEI) and a fellow at the Center on Armed Groups. She has provided advisory services to policymakers, US and European donors, regional actors, UN agencies, and humanitarian organizations. Nadwa is regularly featured as a guest speaker on panel discussions about Yemen and the broader Middle East and her work has been widely published by the top think tanks in the United States and Europe.

In her previous roles, Nadwa served as a senior conflict advisor to the World Food Program, a Yemen country director at the Center for Civilians in Conflict, the founding director at Partners Yemen, a MENA advisor at Partners Global, and a senior program manager at the National Democratic Institute.

Nadwa’s research focuses on conflict in Yemen, drawing connections to broader geopolitical dynamics in the Middle East. She examines the impact of US foreign policy, internationally-led peace efforts, counterterrorism, and aid on stability and security amid the rise of non-state armed actors and the evolving proxy warfare landscape in the region.

The International Risk Podcast brings you conversations with global experts, frontline practitioners, and senior decision-makers who are shaping how we understand and respond to international risk. From geopolitical volatility and organised crime, to cybersecurity threats and hybrid warfare, each episode explores the forces transforming our world and what smart leaders must do to navigate them. Whether you’re a board member, policymaker, or risk professional, The International Risk Podcast delivers actionable insights, sharp analysis, and real-world stories that matter. 

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Transcript:

Nadwa Al-Dawsari: So we’ve seen all of this happening in real time, only over the past five to six years. And yet people still not realizing that the Houthis are progressively becoming a greater threat, and my concern is that one day they will become along with all the shadow actors they are working with one day, they will become a force of disruption that will end the world order as we know it.

Elisa Garbil: Welcome back to the International Risk Podcast, where we discuss the latest world news and significant events that impact businesses and organizations worldwide.

Dominic Bowen: Hi, I’m Dominic Bowen and welcome back to the International Risk Podcast. For over two decades, I’ve had the real blessing of working in some of the most fragile environments around the world. From the streets in Sada, in northern Yemen, to the front lines in Syria, Lebanon and more recently in Ukraine.

And what I’ve primarily been doing is helping organizational and business leaders navigate geopolitical turbulence and operational risk. And today [00:01:00] we’re revisiting Yemen, and our guest today is Nir Al Alade. She’s a respected conflict analyst and a policy advisor on Yemen and Middle Eastern Security.

She’s got over 20 years of experience in the region and a reputation for really sharp. Analysis. Her work now focuses heavily on maritime security in the Red Sea and on the Houthis. So if your business, if your organization, has supply chains or investments that run through the Red Sea, or touches on European energy, Asian manufacturing, or even Middle Eastern infrastructure, then this episode is really important for you.

Nwa, welcome to the International VIS Podcast.

Nadwa Al-Dawsari: Thank you for having me.

Dominic Bowen: Today, many politicians are still dismissing the Houthis is just an Iranian proxy or a regional irritant, But I understand that your research suggests something more significant, A, a self-directed regional actor, a an actor with real autonomy and perhaps even asymmetric power projection. So how would you advise that policy makers and business leaders think differently about the Haes today compared to where they were five years ago?

And are the risk that international actors [00:02:00] have by underestimating the ideological coherence and the operational independence that the Houthis really do have?

Nadwa Al-Dawsari: Yes. My advice is to not underestimate the Houthis, and not dismiss their ideology, and to try to understand the Houthis as a Yemeni actor and as a regional actor from the lens of Yemeni and regional conflict dynamics. The problem in most of the analysis since the beginning of the war in Yemen in 2014 is that it was dominated by a narrative that looked at Yemen and also the Houthis from the lens of, concerns over foreign policy, in particular opposition to US UK Europe support to. Coalition in the war in Yemen. As a result, the dominant narrative to a large extent either dismissed the Houthis as only a proxy of Iran or downplayed the relationship with Iran. The truth is much more complex than that.

Dominic Bowen: From a risk [00:03:00] perspective, I’m working with clients across Europe and and Asia, and they’re absorbing massive shipping delays, cost hikes, and insurance premiums. And the Red Sea is not an insignificant location. I think by some estimates, up to 30% of all container trade moves through the Red Sea, valued at about $1 trillion annually.

So. I’m wondering, many are still hoping, they’re still clinging to this idea that this is a temporary issue, that a ceasefire or military pressure will solve the Red Sea crisis, but I think the structural cost of the disruption are mounting and they’re not going away. So what do you see as the, if we can call it an economic end game for the Houthis, is disruption just the strategy itself or is this leverage for something larger?

Nadwa Al-Dawsari: So in order to answer this question, we need to understand who the Houthis are because they are widely misunderstood. So a lot of analysts describe the Houthis as a zad minority that’s not particularly accurate. It is, but it’s not. The Houthis emerged from the Zaia revivalist movement. They’re not the Zaia [00:04:00] revivalist movement. They are an offshoot of the movement. the Zaia revivalist movement in the north, which gained a lot of legitimacy, was largely a peaceful movement, the Houthis militarized movement in the late, 1970s. The Houthis are jardi zaes. They’re a minority sect within the Zai Shia Islam. According to Jari, Zai only descendants of prophet Moham have a right to rule.

The Houthis ambition is to regain their lost right to power. The hashemites, the descendants of Prophet Muhammad, ruled Yemen, poor centuries, north Yemen in particular. at some point in history, all Yemen, but mostly North Yemen, in particular, Sada, and Sana and those areas.

they were the imamate that was the ruling system, for hundreds of years until it was overthrown in 1962. and when it, it was overthrown, the hashemites, who are the descendants of prophet Mohamed, that’s a term they lost their right to rule, and a [00:05:00] republic was. Created so many of the Zaist scholars, who stayed in Sada, resented that fact and felt that that was their birthright that was taken by the Republic.

And so the Houthis are an extension of that ideology. So that is the domestic face of the Houthis. One to reinstate the hashemites right to rule a descendants of Prophet Mohammed that they lost in 1962. On the other hand, the Houthis also are heavily influenced by the Iranian revolution. since the eighties, the founder of the movement has in the Houthis, his father and the current leader spent time in Iran, and then later in Beirut.

they received training. Hundreds of them received training. They came back to Yemen and they came armed with this. Transnational ideology, anti west, antisemitic, and also revolutionary ideology. That’s transnational. So the Houthis are a mix of both and to dismiss them as only Iranian proxy.

Or, to think about them as only a [00:06:00] many player, driven by grievances. Domestic grievances is not accurate today. The Houthis are a regional player. They’re transnational, they have transnational ambition, and this is a fact now, and we need to deal with it. We need to deal with the Houthis as the threat.

They are not as the version that fits our own narratives for one reason or another.

Dominic Bowen: Yeah, no, that, that’s really helpful, Nadwa. And, and I I, I’m really glad you unpacked, how deeply complex the movement is. I think, on average, especially when it comes to international relations, but even, even Yemen, I would count myself as someone and knew a little bit more about Yemen than the average person on the street. It’s just such a complex movement. You know, I, I often describe them as being part, revivalist, part nationalists, part insurgents, and definitely rulers of a, of a large part of Yemen and their, motivations, alliances and ideologies just really defy any simplistic labeling.

Nadwa Al-Dawsari: Yeah.

Dominic Bowen: so I wonder how, how should policy advisors, how should multinational companies, how should people managing supply chains and even insurance companies managing all the shipping [00:07:00] going through the Red Sea, how should they be thinking about the Houthis and, and what’s happening off the coast of Yemen along the Red Sea, if they’re gonna start taking a longer term horizon?

Nadwa Al-Dawsari: Well, they have to acknowledge that all interventions that has happened so far whether by the US, the international community, the UN have fallen short because they failed to deal with this threat strategically. They have been stuck on reacting and mitigation, and they have largely ignored the power dynamics, in the process.

So here’s what the international community has done since 2015, since the Houthis became a player in Yemen and then regionally, the international community’s response was to support the UN peace’s process in Yemen.

The UN came with a framework of peaceful negotiations between the Houthis and the Yemen government and pushing for a ceasefire and a political settlement. Now, the problem with that framework is [00:08:00] that it. Failed to account for the HST ambition. The HST continued to expand inside Yemen and the UN and the international community continued to put pressure on the Yemeni government to deescalate.

So while the Yemeni government was forced to deescalate every single time and also was not allowed to even import weapons, the Houthis continued to get arms from Iran. And so, because the international community and the UN have leverage on the NY government that worked, that forced the NY government to deescalate, but at the same time, they didn’t have leverage on the Houthis. And so every cease fire was an opportunity for the Houthis too escalate and gain more territory. And become stronger. And so this pattern continued between 2014, actually until it culminated in the Stockholm agreement in December, 2018. Months before that, the government was about to take Herda Seaport from the Houthis.

but the international [00:09:00] community, and that’s the us that’s the uk, that’s European government, that is international organization. They put a lot of pressure on the Emmen government and the Saudi led coalition to halt that offensive. The government was only three kilometers away from retaking, Heida Seaport from the Houthis.

eventually the government. A lot of pressure had to, abort the mission, and the houthis kept the seaport. So what happened after that was the Houthis used that opportunity to regroup, and then they launched offensive in other parts of the country and they gained large territory, and that tipped the scale in their favor.

So a well-intentioned. Intervention by the international community, orchestrated by the un, ended up helping the healthies and making Yemen conflict. More difficult and more complex. And back then I remember myself and, a lot of Yemenis, not only the Yemen government or the Saudi led coalition, we warned that this will allow the Houthis to threaten international shipping and regional security, and we were dismissed as war mongers.

But fast forward [00:10:00] five years later, the H is actually threatened. International shipping and regional security, and we, see this unfold. we’ve seen this unfolding since October, 2023 and, we haven’t seen the worst yet.

The tools that the international community is still using are still not effective.

Dominic Bowen: So I’d like to unpack a few of those things, including the anti-Western, anti-Semitic, anti-colonial, but also the interventions that the international community is using. but first, you, you made me think about that. You know, there’s this cognitive blind spot that I see in, in many boardrooms and. It’s where risk is seen as something that’s transactional. It’s not ideological, but one thing that I’ve seen firsthand in countless environments around the world is how ideological narratives, especially martyrdom, especially about resistance, especially about divine obligation, really can feel sustained operations long after the cost benefit breaks down. So I wonder how should Western security analysts and and diplomats be recalibrating their assumptions when facing an actor like the Houthis, whose strategy is not just grounded [00:11:00] in perhaps deterrence theory, but also in theological imperatives and a revolutionary identity.

Nadwa Al-Dawsari: So again, the problem is that there’s either unwillingness to understand the houthis or inability to understand the Houthis, but I, I do blame western government. But then Western governments are informed by Western think tanks and Western think tanks tend to see or view Yemen conflict or regional conflicts from their own concerns from domestic policy.

Concerns. and with that, they look at what is the US doing that’s wrong? They oppose US intervention, they oppose UK intervention, they oppose their government’s involvement in the war in Yemen. and so there’s, been a lot of focus on Saudi led coalition. Intervention, which left civilian casualties.

And then you know, you’re holding your government accountable for supporting the Saudis. And there is truth to that. But at the same time, on the other hand, the Yemeni story was completely lost, sidelined, ignored. [00:12:00] And not only the Houthis threat was downplayed, but also there was. A level of romanticizing with the Houthis that the Houthis are doing this because they are anti imperialism, but the Houthis are not anti imperialism.

If you look at the Houthis ideology, they are imperialists, The Houthis are driven by, Islamic eschatology. So I talked about the Houthis. Ideology as Gerald ad, and then they want to reinstate the Hashemite right rule, but not just in Yemen. Their goal is not Yemen. The Houthis want Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia and their end game is Jerusalem.

They want to capture Jerusalem. They want to establish a global Islamic government based in Jerusalem, and that’s rooted in Islamic eschatology. So according to Shia and Sunni Islamic scholars, prophet Moham told his companion so that when the time comes, a figure will emerge. Reportedly in Yemen, and that figure will unite [00:13:00] armies in Yemen, Iraq, and the Lavant, and march them towards Mecca, where he will receive an oath of allegiance, and then he will march these armies towards Jerusalem, kill the Jews, capture Jerusalem, and establish an Islamic government.

Now, according to that eschatology. This will happen in preparation for Jesus coming back. And when Jesus come back, Jesus will pray behind this figure. The figure is almadi. and Jesus will acknowledge that Islam is the right religion or something like that. And so people around ab ti who believe in him, who believe in his ideology.

He probably himself think that he’s that figure because that figure is a descendant of Prophet Mohammed according to, to Islamic, scholars. So this is the vision that drives the Houthis. The Houthis believe that they are distant to win, that God is on their side, and that God has gotten them this far.

And, and if you think about it, this was a small insurgency in North Yemen, and now look at them. I don’t blame them for believing that God is on their [00:14:00] side because they’ve achieved so much. and the Houthis, call the Red Sea attacks and their attacks against Israel. They call that operation the battle.

of promised Conquest and jihad. So they believe they are promised the conquest of Jerusalem. That’s what drives them. And they succeeded because they happened to align with Iran. Iran made the Houthis who they are today. Nobody can dismiss that without Iran, the Houthis wouldn’t have stepped a foot outside of Sada.

That’s also another very important, Thing to realize,

Dominic Bowen: if memory serves me correct. Before 2015, the Saudis were also supporting the Houthis, weren’t they?

Nadwa Al-Dawsari: So there were rumors that the Saudis supported the Houthis. I don’t know. I don’t have evidence, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened because the Saudis have supported.

Different groups in different times and they tend to be very generous with money, with, with everybody. So I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the case

Dominic Bowen: Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. One of the things I, I see that, [00:15:00] that’s common in, in many, fragmented governance environments where I’ve worked, whether it’s Yemen, whether it’s Syria, Iraq, Haiti, or Sudan, there’s this blurry line between what might be considered state craft and what might be considered warlordism and.

I think the Houthis have certainly created an effective state in northern Yemen and across much of the country, complete with taxation, conscription and even judiciary systems. So to what extent can you see the Houthis current governance model as as one that’s sustainable? And I wonder if it’s possible to draw inferences from how they’re managing governance internally about what their long-term ambitions are, if we draw it short of the capture of Jerusalem.

Nadwa Al-Dawsari: Yeah, so their governance model is actually in service of their ambition. This is how the Houthis rule the north. They don’t govern. They control the population. The Houthis have captured everything in the north, they control state institutions, but they actually rule the country through a shadow system.

the Houthis rule the country through what they call a [00:16:00] jihadist council. The Jihadist Council is. Led by Abdi, the group’s leader who’s sort of spiritual, kind of religious figure in the council. His two main aides are an IRGC commander and Hezbollah leader. and basically the Jihadist council runs everything in the country.

There are ministries, yes, but in every ministry there is a supervisor. In every police station there is a supervisor. This network of supervisors are. part of the healthiest shadow system that’s linked to the Jihadi Council, and it’s there to make sure that. Everything is in order and also to make decisions.

And these supervisors are usually ideologues from the Houthis inner Circle. So inside the country, what the Houthis have done, they’ve created this system where also they’ve captured not only state institutions, they also captured businesses, and they have this very sophisticated system of taxation, extortion, which keeps resources coming to the group.

At the same time, Yemeni is a very [00:17:00] tribal society, especially in the north. What the Houthis has focused socially, they focused on dismantling the tribal structure, so undermining tribal leaders, eliminating tribal structure. Between 2015 and 2022, the Houthis killed at least 40 tribal leaders, some of them for refusing to recruit fighters for the Houthis.

So they isolated tribal leaders, and. In every tribal area, there are hoi supervisors who have more influence than tribal leaders. At the same time, they focused very much on indoctrinating and recruiting children and young people. so they have these summer camps where they bring in young people to train them in isolation from their families for months at a time indoctrinating them with their ideology, jihadist ideology, and training them on fighting. In 2025, the Houthis graduated one point 25 million girls and boys from these summer camps. They also made almost 500 changes to the school curriculum to instill their jihadist ideology.

At the same time [00:18:00] also, they have a network of informal school system. It’s called Albara Institutions, where in that system there is only TIS ideology and is like a boarding school, and they studied there for years. They graduate, as ideologue, so they’re focused on building their army.

The ties CM and as a recruitment camp, and they do that by indoctrinating the younger population in Yemen. To create their own jihadist army who believe in their ideology. At the same time, dismantle both state institutions and also social institutions like the tribes who have prevented the state in the past from, taking full control of the population and also from indoctrinating the population.

Dominic Bowen: and I think if we look at what’s happened, more recently, there’s been military strikes from, USA the world’s most powerful military, actor. Then obviously Israel and I think France and the UK have also been involved. There’s been sanctions, there’s been ceasefires, but none have actually addressed the root causes of the conflict in Yemen. And mm, there’s things like these [00:19:00] naval escorts, which secure shipping lanes somewhat, but again, is very, very expensive and doesn’t address the root causes.

These targeted airstrikes, is provoking escalations and in some regards is strengthening the, the houthis, sanctions and arms Interdiction is meant to reduce weapons flows, but hasn’t been impactful as long as Russia, China, and Iran Ki. Passing them, the enforcement’s gonna remain, ineffective.

There’s the option of, political inclusion, which might, secure long-term piece. But of course, some people advocating that a group that is so anti-Western, anti-colonial, anti-Semitic shouldn’t be, offered political inclusion.

So I wonder if, you were advising Western governments. And advising multinationals who are dependent on the Red Sea, what combination of measures would you like to see in order to reduce the risk?

Nadwa Al-Dawsari: I don’t think that inclusion has been a problem. The Houthis, since 2014 have been one of two main parties to the conflict who are included in the UN LED and Western backed peace process.

The Houthis have been offered [00:20:00] more than one time a political solution where they are. Largely represented and they refused. because the Houthis don’t want and enter the war because peace is not conductive to either long-term goal. Again, the peace process assumes that, that the Houthis are only a domestic actor, but the Houthis are not only a domestic actor.

The Houthis are a transnational actor with ambitions to project power throughout the region and globally. And so inclusion is, in theory, it’s a good solution, but in, practice, we’ve been trying to, end the conflict through including the Houthis and other groups, but the Houthis refused.

so what the Houthis are doing also inside the country is they’re militarizing the population. They’re isolating Yemenis, and that’s where. airstrikes by the Israelis and the Americans. They might slow down the Houthis, but the Houthis work mainly in the shadows along with Iran, IRGC, along with Russia, along with China.

And now they’re also expanding throughout the Horn of Africa. they’ve forged relationship with Al-Shabaab isis, A QAP [00:21:00] at home Somali Pirates. So they have this network that they’ve built only over the past couple of years That’s already way ahead of the international community and the international community, including the us, they’re responding with airstrikes, they’re responding with sanctions that really don’t achieve, long-term impact, if not, backfire, altogether.

so if. I were to make a decision, I’m being practical. I understand the Houthis, I understand their ambition. Yemenis do, but nobody wants to listen to Yemenis, and that’s why we’re here in the first place.

The solution is to support Yemeni government. Yemeni government is a, is an ally of the West. The Saudi Elite Coalition intervened and they relied mainly on airstrikes. The Emiratis helped liberate the South from the Houthis, but then focused on creating groups that are.

Aligned with the Emiratis, supporting the Southern, transitional council focused on, establish influence in key seaports and islands, because that’s the [00:22:00] Emiratis ambition is to have, more leverage in that maritime domain. it serves Emiratis. ambition as a regional power.

The Saudis relied on airstrikes, and then in 2020 they decided that they will have direct negotiations with the Houthis. And since then, they’re informally out of the picture, out of the war. they’re not really involved in the war anymore. they sponsored a ceasefire with the Houthis.

The Saudi LED coalition failed to support the government sufficiently to create a military balance that will bring Yemen close to a political settlement and so if we want an end to the war, we need to strengthen Yemen government.

We need to strengthen Yemeni government forces so that they can hold the line because the Houthis are trying to take more territory in Yemen, but also where in time they can push the Houthis militarily, the Houthis are not going to come to the negotiation table in good faith. Unless they feel threatened and they will only feel threatened if they lose grounds.

And right now [00:23:00] it’s not the case. right now the Houthis have become a regional actor and they’re, they’re entrenching themselves throughout the region, red Sea Horn of Africa. And that even emboldened them further and the failure of the international community to address the Red Sea crisis. and the TI threat has further reassured the group that they are superior to everybody else and that they are on the right track and that they can achieve what they are looking for, what they aim for, which is regional dominance.

so without supporting the Yemeni government, the Houthis will continue to advance their goal. So my concern is that the Houthis might take all Yemen. If the Houthis take all Yemen, we don’t have an ally in Yemen, so how are we gonna address the Houthis threat when they control the entire country with 2000 kilometer shore? And then with all these alliances across the Red Sea. It will become an impossible situation to contain much less, address.

Dominic Bowen: And so when we look at all this, I wonder if there’s lessons that we should be learning from the Red Sea and [00:24:00] apply them to other hotspots around the world. I mean, whether it’s the insurance markets or shipping routes, the Houthis have shown that they can choke global trade routes like the Red Sea.

Do you see this as a tactic that could be copied by other actors and a new normal for global trade insecurity around the world?

Nadwa Al-Dawsari: Yeah, absolutely. I think the healthiest are probably becoming an inspiration to a lot of similar groups, particularly a religiously motivated group. And that makes a big difference.

If a group is religiously motivated, then The ambition is, divine, is inspired by God, which has an energy, by itself. The lesson that we need to learn from all of this is that traditional tools are not effective. the traditional tools that work in a certain country in Asia might not necessarily work in a country like Yemen.

So in this case, NPS process, NPS negotiations might not necessarily have been the best route. or they could have been the best route, but they should have been supplemented with allowing Yemeni government to reclaim sovereignty over its [00:25:00] territory, which was not the case. The international community prevented the government from regaining sovereignty over its own territory.

And that was a fatal mistakes that we are paying for now. So the other lesson learned is, Think strategically, and I know this is very difficult for this Western world order, which tends to just react. That’s the problem in Yemen, that the western world, the western countries have only reacted to the Houthis threat and then weighted, and then reacted, and then waited. that’s the, problem with, Western governments is that they’ve been reacting to the Houthis threat since 2014. and that pattern of reaction has only helped the Houthis. Become stronger and weakened the Yemen government at the expense of Yemen.

Of course, you know, and peace in Yemen, but also at the expense of regional security. And this pattern will only continue to replay itself we stop and, and think differently. the other lessons learned is we cannot [00:26:00] go from peace negotiations. Only peaceful, talks can solve the conflict in Yemen to bombing the Houthis almost oblivion. There has to be a balance. Okay. I am with using military force to weaken the Houthis because that’s the only way for them to realize that violence is not the way forward to Yemen or to them, but that cannot just be with blanket bombing of a country.

you need a strategy. You need to work with allies, not only regional allies, but Yemeni allies, and you need to think more long term, and that’s been missing.

Dominic Bowen: And when you look around the world, Nadwa, there’s obviously a lot of things that could grab your attention, but what are the international risks globally that concern you the most?

Nadwa Al-Dawsari: So the international risks around the world is that we are still reacting, we’re still not taking the Houthis threat seriously. We are now faced with a group that in a very limited time, expanded regionally.

[00:27:00] not only threatened international shipping, but also is working as part of this huge, shadow network of non-state actors. We’re talking RRGC. We’re talking other access of resistance members. We’re talking Al-Shabaab, Somalia. We’re talking Somali pirates. We’re talking AKA P. We’re talking all these actors coming together to challenge Western models.

of de terms, and which has proven to be ineffective obviously. You know, about two months after the intensive US airstrikes Against Thethis, they signed two ships and abducted a dozen seafarers. that tells you something. So my greatest worry is that we’re gonna wake up one day to a threat not only impossible to counter. That is threatening the entire international order. And with that comes a world that’s ruled by war economy, and countries that are ruled by dictatorships and widespread oppression. Basically the death of democracy. My concern is that Western [00:28:00] policy makers and whoever is informing their decisions that they don’t see that this threats will evolve in that direction. but we’ve seen the Houthis evolve. You know, I remember in 2016 the Houthis. On their tv. They showed drones and missiles they built, and we were ridiculing them as Yemenis. We were making fun of them. We thought, come on, they’re not gonna build drones. They’re not gonna build missiles. Fast forward only a year or two later, they started bombing Saudi and they bombed Saudi with a thousand ballistic missiles and 350 drones.

Effectively forcing the Saudis to exit Yemen at least informally. And then they’re also now threatening international shipping. They San ships, they abducted crews. So we’ve seen all of this happening in real time, only over the past five to six years. And yet people still not realizing that the Houthis are progressively becoming a greater threat, and my concern is that one day they will become along with all the shadow actors they [00:29:00] are working with one day, they will become a force of disruption that will end the world order as we know it.

Dominic Bowen: Well, Thank you very much for sharing that and thanks very much for coming on the International Rose Podcast today, NIR.

Nadwa Al-Dawsari: Thank you. Hopefully that’ll be helpful.

Dominic Bowen: Well that was a really thought provoking conversation with Nadwa Al-Dawsari. she’s a researcher, conflict analyst And policy advisor. I really appreciated her sharing her thoughts on the Houthis and the situation in the Red Sea.

The perspectives that Nadwa shared today really raises challenging questions for our audience that they’ll want to consider and, and make their own opinions up. As always, on the International WI Podcast, our goal is to put difficult issues on the table and the situation in Yemen and the Red Sea is certainly complex and often raises many contentious and, important topics that we need to consider.

Today’s podcast was produced and coordinated by Elisa Garbil. Thank you very much for listening. I’m Dominic Bowen, your host. I’ll speak again next week.

Elisa Garbil: Thank you for listening to this episode of the International Risk Podcast. For more episodes and articles, visit the international risk [00:30:00] podcast.com. Follow us on LinkedIn, blue Sky, and Instagram for the latest updates, and to ask your questions to our host, Dominic Bowen. See you next time.