Episode 245: The importance of Youth Work and a World Losing its Community with Abbee McLatchie

Coordinated and Produced by Elisa Garbil

In today’s episode of The International Risk Podcast, we explore an overlooked yet vital aspects of national and international resilience and risk mitigation: youth work. With social unrest, economic inequality, and political extremism on the rise globally, the risks of neglecting young people are no longer abstract; they’re immediate, measurable, and increasingly destabilising. 

Our guest, Abbee McLatchie, Director of Youth Work and the Deputy CEO at National Youth Agency, joins us to discuss why youth work isn’t just a social service – it’s a frontline defence against future crises. From community cohesion to countering radicalisation and addressing structural poverty, the stakes couldn’t be higher.

The International Risk Podcast is a must-listen for senior executives, board members, and risk advisors. This weekly podcast dives deep into international relations, emerging risks, and strategic opportunities. Hosted by Dominic Bowen, Head of Strategic Advisory at one of Europe’s top risk consulting firms, the podcast brings together global experts to share insights and actionable strategies.

Dominic’s 20+ years of experience managing complex operations in high-risk environments, combined with his role as a public speaker and university lecturer, make him uniquely positioned to guide these conversations. From conflict zones to corporate boardrooms, he explores the risks shaping our world and how organisations can navigate them.

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Transcript:

Dominic Bowen: Hi, I’m Dominic Bowen, host of the International Risk Podcast, and in today’s episode of the podcast, we’re exploring an overlooked yet vital aspect of national and international resilience and risk mitigation. And I’m talking about youth work with social unrest. Economic inequality and political extremism on the rise globally.

The risks of neglecting young people are no longer just an abstract. They’re immediate, they’re measurable, and they’re increasingly destabilizing in many communities. Our guest, Abby McClatchy, is the director of Youth work and deputy CEO at the National Youth Agency, and she’s joining us to discuss why youth work.

Isn’t just a social service, it’s a frontline defense against future crisis. From community cohesion to countering radicalization and addressing some structural poverty issues, the stakes simply couldn’t be higher. Abby, welcome to the International Risk Podcast.

Abbee McLatchie: Thanks for having me down. I appreciate your time today.

Dominic Bowen: I mean, there’s a lot of topics I wanna explore with you today, but if we just jump straight into the deep and heavy end of it, can you talk to us about how does an absence of youth work increase the risks of things like mental health crisis, social disengagement, even radicalization and disengagement from different cultural contexts in our societies?

Abbee McLatchie: So I guess one of the first things to really know is there’s lots of really, really strong evidence that shows a direct correlation between the benefit of youth clubs and social risks. And harms and so for example, there was a really interesting study by the University of Warwick a few years ago that showed a direct correlation between the closure of youth clubs and youth services and, more than 10% increase in crime for young people. Age 10 to 15 year olds. Youth clubs reduce vulnerability to radicalization. They offer belonging. They offer relationships with adults who identify where people might be at risk, and being able to support with strong, early. Measures. We did a piece of research about 18 months ago with young people across the UK with Savannah, and one of the overwhelming messages from young people in that research said that they were desperate for a sense of belonging.

And one of the things that they specifically asked for was youth clubs because young people increasing feel disconnected, so youth clubs are a key mechanism for reducing that.

Dominic Bowen: And you mentioned youth clubs and you talked about this desperate need for a sense of belonging and I understand, you know, there’s just been so many reports and so many speaking about how there’s these young adults that just feel disconnected from their communities.

They’re struggling to find a sense of belonging, and there’s these indications that there’s only a small percentage of young people that actually feel deeply connected to at least one. Type of community and a significant portion of the young adults and teenagers report actually not feeling a strong sense of belonging anywhere.

So why is that? I mean, obviously we’ve seen a decline of the church in many communities. You talked about, social groups and youth clubs, but why are increasing numbers of young people feeling like they don’t belong?

Abbee McLatchie: Yeah, I think it’s really interesting. I also think it’s really complex.

I don’t think there’s a one answer to.

I think a lot of this relates to the fragmentation of local communities. So young people are facing more diverse pressures than they were previously. So there’s economic pressures we have currently in England. We’ve got an increasing and high rate of young people that not in employment educational training. So job insecurity is a real issue for young people and for young people that aren’t yet left school or left education and ready for work, they’re looking into a future and that’s what they can see, that insecurity and instability. Cost of living means that young people might not have financial access to be able to engage in some of those things that they would’ve done.

We have a bit mental health crisis for young people in the UK at the moment. We’ve got high rates of poor, mental, and statu services should meet those needs just.

Of referrals being made for young people, but also there’s something about the changing shape of the world and young people are less in physical spaces and increasingly in digital spaces, and obviously that does bring a very different type of connection. Now, I’m not necessarily saying that that’s negative or positive, but I do think it provides a different environment for young people.

Anything that we’ve ever looked at before. And when you put that against a backdrop of young people saying that they don’t necessarily feel like they belong in school, that we’ve also got, so in the UK we’ve got over a hundred thousand young people who didn’t return to school properly post COVID. So even those structures that do exist.

Aren’t necessarily meeting the needs of young people. We’ve got a really diverse range of challenges that we need to create a breadth of opportunities for people to youth and community work has a strong role to play.

Dominic Bowen: Yeah. It’s particularly interesting when you started answering that question. I started thinking about social media and, and listening to your responses.

I’m not gonna talk about social media. It’s easy to blame social media, but noting you talked about that at the end. I think I should ask about this shift to digital spaces and some of the data is quite concerning. I read some, data from the us. 50% of people age between 16 and 25 have never asked someone of the opposite sex out on a date, in person, which just seems, shocking to me and my generation anyway.

So I know that technology and social media clearly makes it easier to stay in touch, but my understanding is that connections are really superficial and it leads to almost a false sense of connection and it potentially leaves people feeling more isolated, lacking these genuine, meaningful relationships.

What are you seeing in your work when it comes to. Social media and the impact of how people engage or only superficially engage?

Abbee McLatchie: Yeah, it’s really interesting actually. We recently a massive piece of work on digital and social media and young people across the past 18 months, and we recently had quite a big launch event for that.

So we’ve launched some digital standards for people that work with young people because actually if we know that young people are spending up to five hours a day, in social media spaces, there’s no framework for safety around those spaces.

But also there’s something about, how young people are using those spaces quite differently. So for some young people, social media and those kind of digital platforms actually increasing inclusion. Young people that find it difficult to perhaps, and you know, and this is a big generalization, but I’m gonna use it anyway, people might be diverse and struggle in interactions.

Digital spaces can be really safe for them and really help them to find a stronger sense of connection. So it’s definitely not all negative. The flip side of that is that young people are in spaces that are relatively unregulated and that they don’t teach them those skills that are necessarily as useful in the real world.

So operating in an online environment is not the same as being in a physical workplace, for example, if we’re thinking about future life plans for young people. And so there’s something about, the west of the internet that I think is quite risky and it’s definitely something that we’re exploring a lot through our research.

One of the things that we’ve been looking at more recently is the relationship between social media and violence and also misogyny. For example, there’s a brilliant piece of research that was done by the Youth Endowment Fund published at the end of last year that suggests that over 70% of young people have seen.

Quite severe violence against the person online, and I think it’s something like 27% of young people have seen sexual violence online and they’re not looking for it. It’s not that they’re, going out and seeking it’s what’s coming up as they’re scrolling social media platforms. Young people are inadvertently being funneled algorithmically to being exposed to increasing risks for which there’s very little framework around. And so, you know, my argument is, well, what’s the role of community workers and youth workers in helping young people how to navigate those spaces more safely? Whilst there’s a definite policy requirement to be putting in some much stronger parameters around how we police these environments.

Dominic Bowen: It’s very interesting. Thanks for explaining that, Abby. And I wonder, you know, we do a lot of analysis for companies and sometimes even government agencies. And when we’re looking at countries around the world, we’ll look at the obvious things.

We’ll look at crime, we’ll look at political stability, trade relations, foreign exchanges, supply chain risks, critical infrastructure, rule of law, you know, the big level issues. But we know that digging deeper behind some of that will tell us a lot more about the society, about the opportunities, the relations between countries and setting up new businesses, et cetera.

And I think youth engagement is a really big one. Levels of education. I mean, I remember, doing some work back in 2007 and eight and looking at Egypt. It was as clear as day and I don’t wanna say I predicted the spring revolution, but it was as clear as day that there was huge structural issues

over 60% of the population was under the age of 25, I think it was. About 70% of the population had university levels, degrees, but unemployment was skyrocketing. So you had a huge population. Very well educated and a culture that expected you to have a good job before you could get married. So it meant people weren’t getting married, they were unemployed.

And politically there was obviously a lot of other indicators as well. And it led to, obviously, it was one of the catalysts for the Arab Revolution or the Spring Revolution back in 2010. But from what you see, when we look at, whether it’s at the community or the national level, when we’re looking at fragile areas, volatile regions, how do you see that, erosion of youth engagements and youth safety, I guess accelerating other parts of instability within communities or at the national level. And what should analysts and people who are looking at communities, whether they’re politicians, bureaucrats, or business analysts be considering?

Abbee McLatchie: Yeah, I think it’s really interesting. I think the key thing for me is young people that have a strong sense of belonging and positive role models have got an anchor and that anchor helps people to kind of. I guess it’s a bit like a moral compass, isn’t it? It it equips people with the ability to make discerning decisions, to make choices, to understand some of those critical narratives and dialogues, and to bring those critical thinking skills into the choices that they’re able to make for their futures.

And I guess the thing for me is where those things are missing. There’s a void. And with narrative that might particularly speak to those vulnerabilities that those young people have, but with different kind of arguments for the rationale for that. And I guess we see that currently, for example, with the rise of sort of right wing populism, particularly across Europe, there’s been some interesting research recently which looks at the uk in fact, I was reading a report this morning, which is called the UK Youth Poll.

It published in April this year. Democratic engagement of young people and how they feel about themselves and their future. And there’s an interesting, divide happening in terms of right wing and left wing interest by gender. And that’s been replicated in studies around the world that particularly in America actually, there’s definitely a bit of a sense.

Young women are more left, left in politics and.

Geopolitics. I think there’s some really obvious explanations for that in terms of young men’s perception of themselves in terms of where they see their futures. To your point about getting a good job, being able to then fulfill. Traditional norms of masculinity, what’s expected of you culturally.

And I think that we’re seeing that in microcosms in lots of different places around the world. I think it’s really interesting. I think for me, the key things that I would be encouraging people to look out for is where there are those gaps and what they might be filled with. Fragility, I guess, for young people and being able to then backfill that with state intervention or supporting the voluntary sector to do that.

Dominic Bowen: no, that’s really good, Abby. Thanks for explaining that. And I really love what you said at the start about these anchors, how helpful they are. And you know, it’s like a moral compass. And where there’s a void, there’s a risk. And, if I reflect and I look back on what’s helped me

different parts and different times of my life. Certainly different communities and different groups and you know, if I think about my time when working for the government, it just helps if you’ve got these colleagues and they’re like, oh, what are you doing on the weekend?

What are you doing tomorrow? Oh, I’m think gonna have a sleep in. No, you’re not. We’re going out for a run. I’ll see you at six o’clock. You know, it just changes your attitude about what’s acceptable on a Friday night. What do you do on your weekends? What are the sort of books you’re reading if hanging around with people, if you’ve got that anchor that, yeah, reading is valuable or education is valuable, or fitness is valuable. You feel that and you start asking yourself, how would my friends, how would my partner, how would my family look in that? And I’ve been really blessed, and I think I said this to you before we started recording, I’ve been really, really blessed.

I’ve been so lucky with so many opportunities. And I just, I look back with almost, goosebumps think if I didn’t have those people to help me, to guide me to accountable, I shudder to think about where I might be today.

Abbee McLatchie: And lots of young people don’t have positive role models in their life and that really is a void.

And actually the role of good youth work is not about telling people what they should and shouldn’t do. It’s about being alongside young people on their journey to fulfill whatever their potential might be. Right.

Able engage in different ways with some have skills.

A few years ago in the uk previous government home office had an initiative called Building Stronger Britain Together, and it was about developing community cohesion. We did some fantastic projects and across the country that really supported that initiative. So as a national body, we developed sort of like a resource.

Topics in a way that didn’t shut them down and did create a place where young people could ask those tricky questions and learn from each other. There was a brilliant piece of work that happened in, a town that I won’t name, in England at the same time where there was real community Dubai.

There was a really large population of young British Muslim men and there was a really, really large population also of young men from the sort of, gypsy traveler community. And those young people used to really clash. And actually in that particular town, they decided to bring all those young people together and do a sustained piece of work to create some sort of cohesion and dialogue.

And the whole point of that activity was going, look, there are lots of things that are different about us as individuals and as communities, but there’s also quite a lot that we have that is brings us together in similarity. And what are the things that we do have that are shared? And that piece of work was transformational in that community.

In terms of individual outcomes for young people, but also in terms of reducing some of the social harms that were happening there. So there was less violence, there was less clashes on the streets, you know, and those young people then learn more about each other and how to coexist in that community.

That’s really, really important because where those things don’t happen, those divisions can easily be manipulated by bad actors.

Dominic Bowen: Yeah, and I’d love to pick up on that when you talk about these bad actors, because I’d be keen to hear from you about how things that we see at the international level and these transnational threats like. Digital radicalization. Like this political extremism we’re seeing, not just in the uk, but we’re seeing it in America.

We’re seeing it in Sweden, we’re seeing it in France, Germany, Poland, Hungary, you know, the list goes on and on. And then you’ve got things like climate migration and other types of immigration that are increasingly at the front of so many people’s, top list of things to focus on. How are these things all affecting youth resilience today?

Abbee McLatchie: Yeah. Well, I think that is about exploitation. I think for me it’s always about exploitation and when young people are feeling disenfranchised or feeling disengaged because of wider social issues, like economic instability unemployment or underemployment issues with education, issues with access to mental health.

It’s really easy for those bad actors to exploit those and bring a reason for that. So it’s easy to then say, well, actually the reason that all of these things are terrible for you is because migration, for example, and we saw that in the uk over last summer, didn’t we? Where we saw riots and people being sucked.

Horrendous street based violence, you know, and those young people exploited to believe that the social issues that were a problem for them were caused by people that were asleep in a hotel as opposed to understanding some of those broader geopolitical things really have to financial instability That for me is key. It’s about how do we help young people, and that’s why youth workers have a good role to play. How do we help young people to really understand and interrogate some of those narratives? Because that is what will bring resilience to them. Schools can’t cover that in the curriculum.

They just, for a start off, is a math teacher. Well, maybe math is a rubbish example actually, because in terms of statistics and risk, right? Like that’s possibly what they do. I don’t know. Is a PE teacher skilled, equipped, and knowledgeable to help young people really understand sort of geopolitics or critical dialogue and debate?

And I’m not sure they, but I think workers that sit outside of formal education systems have. Understanding lives of.

Dominic Bowen: No, that’s very valid. And I will also take this opportunity, Abby, to remind our listeners to go to the international risk podcast.com and subscribe to our newsletter to get our latest podcasts and articles and newsletters and all the interesting stuff we produce in your inbox every second week.

But I’d be keen to unpack that a little bit further, Abby and, and understands. When it comes to youth marginalization, what are the blind spots and why should business leaders, investors, and politicians be paying attention to these risks and the potential impact of leaving these risks unaddressed?

Abbee McLatchie: So, I’m gonna say it’s not just about paying attention to it, but I think there’s something about civic responsibility.

So, we don’t live in a world now where the state. Can be the only actor because, we talked about this earlier, but the global economic climate is such that there isn’t an endless part of money. So in England alone, we’ve lost approximately 1.2 billion pounds a year to youth and community services over the past 12 years.

That was a report published by the YMCA and yet the social return on investment against outcomes. Things like crime and health of youth work is between and six pound. For me, if young people are at risk from health, poor health outcomes and crime, et cetera, that has a direct correlation with business, with the economy, and with politics.

But like I said, it’s not just about paying attention to it, it’s about civic responsibility. And if State can’t fill that gap because they don’t have that funding, what is the role of corporate and businesses and communities to be the village? People need to grow and to grow into their potential and be successful.

There’s some really, really good examples of where businesses and banks see this and recognize this and are starting to step into the space. And I can talk about a, a particular project that we are involved in. So, and this is not about promoting it, but it’s just an example of where things can work well.

So we work with nat West Bank where they flow grants into local youth clubs, small grants, in exchange. The youth clubs have a suite of resources that they use with young people to talk about, like what’s their opportunity? What’s their potential, promote their financial but also the bank gives 5 million pounds of their levy spen.

So in the UK we have an apprenticeship levy fund where all businesses that have a certain income, annual turnover, pay a percentage of that into one part. And that part then is used to fund apprentice training, which obviously benefits young people. Right. You know, the apprentices of tomorrow will support those businesses of tomorrow.

And so NatWest give 5 million pounds of their spend. That then pays for youth workers to train. So there’s some really simple ways that businesses and policy makers can kind of think creatively about how to fill this void for young people. Because actually, if we’ve got a generation of young people that are experiencing the worst mental health that they’ve ever experienced, reporting, the highest levels of loneliness that they’ve experienced

to increasing risk online from bad actors and various other things. Surely it’s in all of our interests to address that collectively, and we can only fill that gap if we work collectively to do it. I really believe that,

Dominic Bowen: And I think that’s a very logical understandable, easily digestible, argument that you make, Abby, but then the obvious follow on question is, so why is funding for youth work often deprioritized posts within national and even international budgets?

I mean, we know that there’s these very, very significant and very, very real geopolitical tensions. We’ve got. Migration pressures, we have security threats. And, you know, this leads to increased funding for defense, for border protection, for internal security. Then we’ve got, our national health systems and funding for that, that requires significant budgets in most countries and even regional bodies like the EU and others.

First of all, I’d love to hear your thoughts on why it’s not being prioritized. But if it’s not, and this continues, what do you see as the long-term risks of this underinvestment?

Abbee McLatchie: Yeah. So why is it not being prioritized? Well, firstly, there’s a very different picture depending, on which country you look at.

So I do a lot of work or have done a lot of work with the Commonwealth Secretariat, looking at youth work across the globe of Commonwealth countries. And it’s very different depending on where you go, but even across Europe. It was only a couple of weeks ago, there was this sort of cross European conference on youth work, which brought together national bodies on youth work from different countries.

And some countries have a really strong financial investment in youth work and do prioritize it within budget. So I think it’s important to note that it isn’t a, a static picture, but equally even in the countries where there is a strong. Focus on protecting youth work. There’s still the same risks from all the things that you pointed out.

You know, there isn’t an infinite part of money and youth work isn’t considered to be a top priority, and the reason for that is, is in the most part, youth work isn’t early intervention and prevention in education service, you need to put it where you believe it will have the most impact. Now, if you look at something like social care and you’re looking at children having to be removed from example, it’s really easy to pinpoint how you use your, and the difference makes. In safeguarding youth work is upstream intervention.

So youth work might be working with young people at the very, very starts of their risky journey. So before they would meet threshold for statutory intervention. So I’ll give you an example. The young man in Southport that committed the atrocities here in the UK last year have been referred to prevent services.

I think it was three times. He didn’t meet threshold for statutory because he didn’t.

If he is not even meeting threshold, then what about all of the other young people that are sort of 10 steps behind him in terms of where they are on their ideological journey? Now, youth work works best. With those young people, right? At the very starts of that, helping them think critically, helping them to kind of interrupt some of those things, but also identifying young people that might be at risk, that might be on a journey of perhaps exploitation through ideology, but.

You can’t prove that. How can you prove that a young person having a brilliant relationship with a youth worker every Tuesday stops them committing an atrocity because the atrocity never happened? Does that make sense? Like it’s really hard to measure a negative, and that’s kind of what we’re up against.

Certainly in the UK we always used to be roughly 75% of youth and community work was delivered by local authorities, 25% by the voluntary sector. Now it’s all, it’s pretty much opposite. So 75 to 80% of youth work is delivered by the voluntary sector, but that’s also against the backdrop of like massive charity closures.

You know, it’s something like one in five charities really regularly. So you can see this real sort of tipping point and yeah, risk.

Dominic Bowen: And so what should global institutions like the UN and UNESCO and even regional institutions like the European Union, local governments and civil society be doing differently in order to embed youth work as a pillar, as part of our process to, I guess if I can say, rebuild or strengthen our world, and our communities that are, as you said, suffering from increased international risks and local risks.

What should we be doing differently moving forward?

Abbee McLatchie: Yeah, I mean, I guess that it’s most basic, it’s mainstreaming youth and community work, so it should be mainstreamed across all policy areas. There’s an obvious recognition and there’s so much research and data that talks about this. So there was a brilliant United Nations peace building network report a few years ago, which.

. A loss of youth engagement and real good sort of youth leadership and youth work weakens just as one. The research is. Positive benefits of you across a range of policy areas, but until it’s mainstreamed and protected, so it’s recognized for its social and political value, it’s gonna be really hard to protect it in budgets.

So I guess that that really is the crux of it for me. Recognize it, name it, and then it can be protected in systems and structures.

Dominic Bowen: And when you look around the world, Abby, there’s a lot going on. Yeah. From Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine, civil War in Sudan the threat of China, invading Taiwan.

Then we’ve got climate, there’s a very significant climate issues. We’ve got stuff going on in space that seems, a little bit out of a fiction novel.

Abbee McLatchie: I mean, I started by saying that I don’t think the Internet’s a bad thing. Right? And that actually, I think social media brings incredible value to young people. You know, we can learn about what’s globalization in many ways is brilliant. Young people can be exposed to so many wonderful opportunities. But I guess I also think it brings some of the biggest risks to young people because.

Not only does it bring access to information, it also brings access to bad actors. And I guess one of the biggest risks me is how quickly people, that might not have been spotted as vulnerable can be radicalized in all sorts of different ways, not just the traditional sense of radicalization and exploited through social media before people have even noticed.

So I think technology is the biggest risk, is the one that I’m worried about. Whilst equally recognizing that it brings incredible amounts of opportunities how are we recognizing that? And we can’t put the genie back in the bottle, right?

There’s no way of closing the internet. So what are we doing to equip our young people to be able to use it for their own advantage and for good, protecting them against those negative forces?

Dominic Bowen: It’s always a restful, isn’t it with new technology. There was a recent survey conducted of Australian CEOs and they found that 42% of CEOs in Australia have already started rolling out and embedding artificial intelligence and machine learning into their business models.

And they’ve seen positive results. They’ve seen increased levels of productivity and cost savings, which is fantastic. The same survey also found that one third of CEOs. Didn’t understand AI and are actually fearful of it. So the same CEOs that are rolling this out Are the same CEOs who are saying, actually we don’t fully understand it.

It makes us nervous and we’ve got concerns about the risk, but we have to move forward with it anyway.

Abbee McLatchie: And that’s it. That’s exactly it. When we did the big digital launch with all our Fusion 21 research and various different things, we had a panel of young people that were digital ambassadors.

So we trained up this group of young people from around the country who then went off and did research with more young people. It was. Beautiful actually. And so these young people came and they were talking to us about their experiences online. And for some of those young people, they were talking about how lifesaving it had been for them.

So young people that had enjoy mental health or in the uk, the Cystic Fibrosis Trust, delivers almost all of their youth engagement online because of the health risks of young people being exposed. Through being in group environments when they’ve got low immunity. So on the one hand you’ve got a group of people that going, you know what?

I dunno where I would be. I was so lonely, I was really struggling with social anxiety or whatever the issues might be. equally, while I’m on that, I’m being exposed to all of this horrendous misogyny or, you know, sexual harm or violence I remember working with a person.

Like social friends, social networks. And he was financially exploited online through money mulling through Instagram, right? Look at this, look at this. Well, you can be our friend. Can we just put some stuff in your bank account? It’ll only be for a day or two. And then the next thing that poor boy had lost his bank account and you know, so on the one hand it’s like, wow, I’ve now got a group of friends.

And on the other hand it’s like, but actually that’s brought risk to him. could be catastrophic, right? If the right structures aren’t in place. So yeah, it’s the same story, but just a slightly different tool that we’re talking about, isn’t it?

Dominic Bowen: Yeah, very much. Well, thanks for sharing those stories with us, Abby, and thank you very much for coming on the International Risk Podcast.

Abbee McLatchie: Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciated it and enjoyed it.

Dominic Bowen: Well, that was a great conversation with Abby McClatchy. She’s the Director of Youth Work and the Deputy CEO at the National Youth Agency. I really appreciated hearing Abby’s thoughts about the importance of youth work and youth work and the importance of youth work in a world that’s losing its community and the impact on international risk.

Please remember to subscribe to our mailing list and to get our biweekly newsletter in your inbox. Today’s podcast was produced and coordinated by Elisa Garbil. I’m Dominic Bowen, your host. Thanks so much for listening. We’ll speak again next week.