Episode 394: Switzerland’s 10 Million Referendum – Immigration, Democracy & Europe’s Future with Vincent Maitre
In this episode of the International Risk Podcast, host Dominic Bowen is joined by Vincent Maitre, Swiss lawyer and political representative in Switzerland’s National Council. Vincent examines Switzerland’s changing political and economic landscape and explains what the country’s controversial 10 million referendum reveals about immigration, housing, direct democracy, and political stability. Drawing on his experience as a Swiss National Councillor and lawyer in Geneva, he explores the tensions between population growth and economic competitiveness, the role of consensus politics, and why Switzerland’s approach to democracy and neutrality matters in a rapidly changing Europe.
We discuss:
- Why Switzerland’s system of direct democracy has endured and how referendums shape political decision-making
- What the 10 million referendum reveals about public concerns over immigration, housing, infrastructure, and quality of life
- Why Switzerland remains dependent on foreign workers despite growing concerns about population growth
- How housing shortages, regulation, and lengthy planning processes are affecting Swiss cities
- Why consensus politics and compromise have helped make Switzerland politically and economically stable
- How Switzerland balances military neutrality, international sanctions, and its wider moral and diplomatic responsibilities
- Why Europe needs greater cooperation and solidarity as global power becomes increasingly competitive
- The risks of major powers losing their ability to negotiate, communicate, and work together
This is a timely conversation on Swiss direct democracy, immigration, political stability, European cooperation, neutrality, and the changing nature of geopolitical risk.
The International Risk Podcast brings you conversations with global experts, frontline practitioners, and senior decision-makers who are shaping how we understand and respond to international risk. From geopolitical instability and organised crime to cybersecurity threats and hybrid warfare, each episode explores the forces transforming our world and what smart leaders must do to navigate them. Whether you’re a board member, policymaker, or risk professional, The International Risk Podcast delivers actionable insights, sharp analysis, and real-world stories that matter.
Dominic Bowen hosts The International Risk Podcast and is Europe’s leading expert on international risk and crisis management. As Head of Strategic Advisory and Partner at one of Europe’s leading risk management consulting firms, Dominic advises CEOs, boards, and senior executives across the continent on how to prepare for uncertainty and act with intent. He has spent decades working in war zones, advising multinational companies, and supporting Europe’s business leaders. Dominic is the go-to business advisor for leaders navigating risk, crisis, and strategy; trusted for his clarity, calmness under pressure, and ability to turn volatility into competitive advantage. Dominic equips today’s business leaders with the insight and confidence to lead through disruption and deliver sustained strategic advantage.
Episode 394 Transcript: Switzerland’s 10 Million Referendum – Immigration, Democracy & Europe’s Future with Vincent Maitre
00:04.15
Dominic Bowen
Political decisions and the conversations around them don’t just shape governments, they also shape labour markets, regulation of course, investment and economic growth. And Switzerland’s recent 10 million referendum raised fundamental questions around immigration, business competitiveness and the future of its relationship with the European Union. I’m Dominic Bowen, host of the International WIS podcast, where we disport where we discuss the topics that really matter.
00:33.14
Dominic Bowen
Today we’re joined by Swiss National Councillor Vincent Maran to examine what the referendum tells us about political risk, about democracy, and the difficult balance between economic growth and public concerns over population change. Welcome to the podcast today.
00:51.93
Vincent Maitre
Thank you. I’m good glad to to be with you.
00:54.39
Dominic Bowen
And tell us, where are you today? Where do we find you in the world?
00:58.03
Vincent Maitre
I’m actually based in Geneva, where where I work, where I live. I’m actually an attorney at law in the city of Geneva, in the continent Geneva, but entitled to to go to work and to plead all around Switzerland. And I used to go most of the time, like approximately between four and five months a year in Bern, where is the House of Parliament, to do my second job as a member of the Swiss Federal Parliament.
01:28.02
Dominic Bowen
And tell us a little bit, for many people listening to the podcast today, for many of our European listeners, our North American listeners, and even those in in many parts of Asia and ah Australia, of course, that will sound a bit strange. Most of our politicians are ah full-time politicians. And in fact, it’s it it’s impossible or or illegal um ah to to do both. How does it work in Switzerland that you can manage to have two fantastic careers at the same time?
01:54.14
Vincent Maitre
yeah that’s the That’s the root. That’s the main goal of our political system is having political representative is having a political representative ah that directly comes from the from the population and representing deeply and really the the population. So that’s why all the the politicians in Switzerland are ah non-professional politicians. We all have a main job in her life.
02:24.47
Vincent Maitre
So that’s why you can find in the parliament in in Switzerland, people coming from, I don’t know, farmers, architects, lawyers, workers from the federal or cantonal administration, etc. etc.
02:42.20
Dominic Bowen
And Switzerland is often described as the world’s most successful direct democracy. And many people know Switzerland for its referendums. And and that’s not surprising. In the last 10 years alone, there’s been 86 referendums. But I think few of us really understand how the system works in practice or or why citizens in Switzerland like it so much. So from someone who really gets to see Switzerland from the inside and outside its parliament, what does it look like and and why has it endured for so long?
03:13.21
Vincent Maitre
Yeah, um basically it’s because we have these two fundamental constitutional rights in our constitution calling the referendum rights. It’s the right for every citizen who has collected, depends on the the level of the the politics we’re talking to, but few thousands of signatures they can contest ah Parliament’s decision.
03:43.13
Vincent Maitre
So that’s why we used to vote every three months in Switzerland at the federal level, the cantonal level, and or the and municipality level, the commune’s level, where we have at these three levels this referend referendum’s right. The second fundamental right written in the Constitution is the initiative right. That means every each and every citizen in Switzerland is a load and title if he collects or she collects 100,000 signatures in the population to propose constitutional modification, whatever the subject.
04:23.77
Dominic Bowen
Interesting. That really is ah getting a lot of participation from people. And Switzerland is one of those countries that that has consistently ranked amongst the world’s most competitive and and really stable economies.
04:37.69
Dominic Bowen
And I think when I speak to investors and and business leaders, one of the reasons why, for example, there’s a lot of Swedish companies with headquarters in Switzerland is because of the economic stability, because of the political stability.
04:50.71
Dominic Bowen
How much of the success in Switzerland do you think comes from the current political system versus its natural wealth and geography and and the history of the country?
05:01.50
Vincent Maitre
ah That’s a good question. I think, um yeah, basically, the political stability is probably one of the best insurance in Storward, all the investors we have in Switzerland. Why? Because our government ah is… ah composed by seven ministers. We have no president, no prime minister. We have ah equal seven ministers who have to represent the seven and the seven different, oh i’m not the seven, are the main governmental parties representing in the parliament. So that means between this college of seven ministers, they first of all, and and first, before every decision, they have to get an agreement ah together in between them.
05:59.58
Vincent Maitre
And that means they make sure that they will have a in the parliament and then in the second step, in the population. So that’s why you cannot have…
06:12.34
Vincent Maitre
For instance, for four years, an next extreme rights representative or an next extreme left wings representative um pushing the limits with his own politic and state of view and mindset.
06:27.44
Vincent Maitre
mindset They have to find to find ah the famous called compromise, Elvetic compromise, Swiss compromise, before going with a new project in front of the parliament and then potentially in a referendum in front of the population. So that’s why you cannot have radical too radical or too extreme decision from the government.
06:50.49
Vincent Maitre
So that’s a sign of of stability.
06:53.05
Dominic Bowen
Yeah, that’s very interesting. But when we talk about nothing too radical or everything quite stable, for listeners outside Switzerland, they’ve probably heard of the 10 million proposal. Now, this attracted a lot of attention, it attracted a high voter turnout, and it generated international attention because of the potential consequences for immigration and and Switzerland’s relationship with the European Union. Can you explain for us what was the 10 million referendum really about and why was it such a big political issue?
07:25.40
Vincent Maitre
So that was exactly the result of what I just explained. This this wasn’t a decision or project coming from the government. That was an initiative. Remember, initiative is coming from the population. And this one that were really, really extreme to block the the population in the constitution.
07:46.55
Vincent Maitre
writing in this constitution at 10 million people. This initiative was coming from ah members of the the the most extreme right party in Switzerland. They wanted to stop immigration.
08:04.31
Vincent Maitre
to stop the immigration And because it was it was definitely too too extreme, that the population that has to vote it last month said clearly no at more than 55%, which is quite ah quite high in Switzerland, according to the average of all the votations that we have in Switzerland every year.
08:29.91
Dominic Bowen
And although it was proposed by, as you said, the far right party within the parliament, nearly 45% of voters supported the proposal.
08:40.15
Dominic Bowen
So I’m wondering if the debate was primarily around immigration or if the voters were trying to signal something else, something deeper about housing affordability or infrastructure or healthcare care or public services or quality of life.
08:53.46
Dominic Bowen
From the people you were speaking to and your constituents that you represent, what were the concerns that you were hearing?
09:00.73
Vincent Maitre
and That’s true that the these 45 people who voted for this initiative was a member all members of this power or right-wing party.
09:11.90
Vincent Maitre
But that was a signal indeed to say that something had to be to be done in in Switzerland toward the overpopulation in the country.
09:26.46
Vincent Maitre
You know, for instance, in Geneva, Zurich or Basel, which are the three biggest cities in Switzerland, for instance, we have a lot of ah aber can i say about real renting problems the the the loans are ah way too high. It’s very, very hard to find an apartment or a house to rent in in Switzerland. And it’s a specific population in that point on that point in Switzerland because more than 60% of the population rent their only 20% own that a
10:03.80
Dominic Bowen
Okay.
10:05.43
Vincent Maitre
their location and only twenty person own it so um that was a clear signal to say we are too much people in your transport the the public transport. We have too much people in a very small territory like Geneva, surrounded by by France. We have two more ah too much, ah way too more too much, sorry, workers coming from France, from Italy, from Germany.
10:36.02
Vincent Maitre
And sorry, you want me maybe to to redo this answer?
10:40.64
Dominic Bowen
For sure, yeah.
10:42.26
Vincent Maitre
So that was a ah clear signal coming from the population and that we as a representative have really have to to to to listen to is that we have ah way too much people in our public transport, a way too much people, workers coming from a abroad, from France, from Italy and from Germany. each and every day to work in Switzerland. Too much people in the canton of this really small canton of Geneva, surrounded by more than 180 kilometers of ah of ah borders, which is which is ah approximately 80% of the the total borders. of we have more In Geneva, we have more borders with France than with the other part of the Switzerland. and
11:30.07
Vincent Maitre
So that means it’s very, very high too very very hard to to find ah to find a an apartment to live. It’s very, very expensive.
11:42.01
Vincent Maitre
So in fact, this 45% of the population hasn’t voted to support the far-right party. They just wanted to…
11:52.50
Vincent Maitre
to explain frustration, to give a message to the to the to the politics, to take decisions to help them to having um yeah ah better a better life like they used to or they think they used to have like 20 years ago. But it’s harder that it that in that it appears. So that’s why I think, it’s my opinion, that’s why this initiative was rejected because It was probably good question, but with really, really bad answers.
12:27.77
Vincent Maitre
um It’s impossible just by writing a number an amount of 10 million people in the Constitution to resolve all the problems we have with transportation, with with apartments, et cetera, with we list real estate, with employment, et cetera, et
12:49.30
Dominic Bowen
and And I wonder because, you know, i agree, the obviously the referendum failed, 55% voted against, 45% voted for it.
12:58.04
Vincent Maitre
Thank you.
12:58.46
Dominic Bowen
But these these Italians and and and French and and Germans or people coming from those countries, and many of those are expats as well to those countries that are going back and forth. You’ve got a lot of international companies. You’ve got the headquarters of the United Nations.
13:11.67
Dominic Bowen
There is a ah very, you know, when I visit Geneva and and many of the cities, in switzerland it is such an international uh population and my understanding is that the switzerland’s economy relies heavily on highly skilled international workers and this is a challenge that many countries are are facing in europe not just switzerland so how and what were the sort of debates that we had around that because how do you balance maintaining economic competitiveness while addressing these legitimate public concerns about population growth, about access to real estate. At the same time, while trying to attract the best people and the best businesses,
13:49.88
Vincent Maitre
Indeed, that’s a huge challenge. a huge challenge but because, as you said, um we are completely dependent on our expert expectation. kind of on an economic level. For instance, as you know, we don’t have any commodities in Switzerland. We don’t produce any commodities. And we export more than 50% of our production and services. So we we are completely dependent dependent of the, the
14:26.58
Vincent Maitre
for um for instance, from France, Italy, but even also America, etc. etc cetera So that’s why we absolutely need an and we are only 9 million people, cities in Switzerland inhabited.
14:47.77
Vincent Maitre
And it’s definitely not enough to provide all the workers that our industries, our companies need to to work properly. So that’s why we absolutely have to keep all these foreign workers. But it’s ah of course, it’s a huge challenge to to provide a good life quality, ah a good, I mean, ah enough enough locations ah to to to provide to the population where they can live easily with ah with the small on a small territory.
15:28.72
Vincent Maitre
it’s It’s very hard. But we we definitely need these foreign workers also to help to to finance the social insurances, for instance, the the pension funds, et cetera, et cetera.
15:45.59
Vincent Maitre
So maybe we should be or we will have to be a little bit more restrictive or qualitative on the foreign workers we we need for industry.
16:00.31
Vincent Maitre
As you know, and personally, I’m very, very not, I would say, concerned about it because um We have to find solutions, but I personally really want to keep our humanitarian tradition.
16:17.43
Vincent Maitre
ah swiss Switzerland is well known as a welcoming refugees, for instance, and I think it’s very, very important to keep it. But, of course, in the end of the day, we will probably have to make some some choices or to to to to be really, really aware of keeping a good balance between this humanitarian refugees and the qualified workers to come in to come in in
16:49.66
Dominic Bowen
And I think that you talked about the lack of housing and the the rising housing prices. this is ah This is a common debate. We hear this. I’ve got friends in Australia that are going through this. You hear that in Stockholm, and I think it’s a little bit overblown in Stockholm, but it’s ah it’s a common topic and it’s certainly a topic across the UK where I think there’s a lot of validity around that, around these housing prices being beyond the reach of the average family, which is which is clearly something’s going wrong with the economics there. And they become hot political issues.
17:18.30
Dominic Bowen
So this isn’t just ah an issue in Switzerland. But of course, this became a ah really strong argument during the campaign, along with terms like uncontrolled ah migration. So with that, you know, what is the solution? What are the solutions that you and and your colleagues in the political parties are discussing around housing and infrastructure challenges and finding solutions to that?
17:41.50
Vincent Maitre
So, you know, in Switzerland, we have a lot of regulation about housing, about constrictions, et cetera, and and and renting.
17:52.76
Vincent Maitre
And as a lawyer, I can testify that where, I mean, in the cities where the regulation is the stronger, the lack of housing is the biggest.
18:06.71
Vincent Maitre
So again, in Zurich, Basel or Geneva, we We have a ah huge and massive lack of ah of housing and the prices are, of course, very, very expensive. And I’m really convinced that if we enlarge or yeah and large the did the conditions, the regulations, if we if we soften the the and decrease the regulation, we will be able to provide more housing in the country. Switzerland, we can, for instance, hire the the the buildings. you know Actually, in so in Geneva, for instance, you’re not allowed to build a building of more than six or seven or maybe eight floors.
18:53.94
Vincent Maitre
So i that’s nothing, of course. And i’m I’m really convinced that we can double, triple the height of the buildings to provide more flats to the population. We can also make the regulation more more easy, less invasive. But, you know, it’s…
19:13.56
Vincent Maitre
kind of the what I would call the dark side of the moon of our direct democracy. That means to change the laws and the regulation, to change the rules. It takes a lot of time in Switzerland because we have this right of referendum, i mean ah allowing the population, or part of them of it, and for instance, private association of environmental defense or i don’t know what. to contest rules changes. So that’s why it’s slower and longer to to get, I mean, I would say to to be more efficient in the way we are actually making logs. And the second ah solution is also
19:57.82
Vincent Maitre
to
20:00.89
Vincent Maitre
facilitate the procedure. We have an administration or many administrations in in in our states at the cantonal levels, municipality levels, or even federal levels were very, very heavy to to move in in a procedure. So that’s why also ah we used to say, for instance, in Geneva, once you have the ID to build a building,
20:30.52
Vincent Maitre
it will probably take around 10 to 15 years because you have to go in front of the parliament to to plan or the the territory, to get the real estates, to ask for ah permissions, various, many, many permissions to build this way, that way, with security rules, with environmental rules, with energy saving rules, et cetera, et cetera. It’s a way too heavy and we need to really, really fa facilitate the and speed up the the proceeding the administrative proceedings. That might be two ways to to get some solutions to provide more more housing in Switzerland.
21:15.58
Dominic Bowen
They sound like two good solutions that should be pursued, Vincent. So good to hear those. And I’ll take a moment to remind our listeners that if you prefer to watch your podcasts, the International Risk Podcast is always available on YouTube. So please do go to YouTube and search for our content. Look for the International Risk content. And if you like it, please subscribe. Please like our content and do share it with a friend or colleague. This is really important for our success.
21:42.46
Dominic Bowen
Now, Vincent, many governments are becoming increasingly polarized. Again, this is something we’re seeing right around the world. But Switzerland has a reputation, as you have already discussed, for consensus politics, for coalition building, and business leaders like it. Business leaders really value that predictability. And I’ve i’ve met with a lot of Swedish and and and German business leaders who talk about why they’ve moved their businesses to Switzerland because of that reason.
22:11.42
Dominic Bowen
Now, consensus is slow and often painful, but it can often be much more effective than political confrontation. So when you look at your system and then sometimes when you look at some of the other governments, and we look at the ah seventh prime minister in the UK in the last 10 years, when we look at the highly divisive and partisan politics in the USA, what do you think some of the lessons are that other democracies can learn from the Swiss approach?
22:40.42
Vincent Maitre
I’m definitely, I don’t feel entitled to give any any advices to other countries or or parliament or politics or parliamentarians. But, you know, I think the tradition of consensus in Switzerland is,
22:55.61
Vincent Maitre
is a generally Genuinely, in in in our in our roots, and and you know, for instance, our what we call our modern constitutions has been voted by the population in 1848. And in this constitution, there was that there was this ah fundamental principle that the people has to ah has to decide in the end.
23:27.70
Vincent Maitre
So ah that means that we have this reflex, this culture to look for consensus, to to find consensus, because we know in the end, you you you have to get a majority of the population.
23:48.60
Vincent Maitre
And that’s again, that means your your project, your decision, your your ah yeah your political project has to be moderate. You first have to be to make sure that most of the population agreed with that with the with the project. And you cannot just…
24:08.82
Vincent Maitre
um go like a bulldozer, like a caterpillar and ah in in politics ah to to impose your point of view to to the rest of the country. So that’s why it’s probably made the investor confident into Switzerland because they know that they will always have ah more or less something stable in Switzerland and really long to change.
24:36.22
Vincent Maitre
So they have time to invest and they they have time to develop their business in Switzerland. So that’s why I think we still have the trust of the investors. But I must say we we have to be careful about it because other countries are also providing with very, very good conditions for the investors in their own country.
24:59.98
Vincent Maitre
in Switzerland cannot just be satisfied of his his actual situation and his whole a state of mind.
25:10.71
Vincent Maitre
We also need, really need to provide investors, foreign companies and and in-house companies with good regulations, good possibility, ability to develop their business and to provide them with Yeah, a good life quality in Switzerland.
25:35.03
Dominic Bowen
Yeah, no, that’s very interesting. And and when you talk about life quality, you know, beyond immigration, you know, issues such as ageing populations, healthcare costs, competitiveness, energy security, ah Europe’s changing geopolitical environment, these are all increasingly important topics that all countries in Europe and the the European Union at large is having to grapple with.
25:57.14
Dominic Bowen
When you look ahead and you you see what you and your colleagues, ah both in in Switzerland, but also across the European Union, are trying to to work through, what do you see as the biggest governance and economic issues facing Europe over the next decade?
26:13.27
Vincent Maitre
Well, I would say rules are changed have changed, probably because the leaders of the major ah countries, I mean, powerful countries in the world are now ah thinking in terms of domination.
26:31.35
Vincent Maitre
um Yeah, for instance, you know if you look at of course, Donald Trump’s strategy and politics, but also Vladimir Putin or Xi Jinping, they are not really dedicated into democracy. or they they They don’t have this ah this ah software of of communication, of ah agreement, of discussions and and consensus.
27:05.78
Vincent Maitre
They are in ah in a Yeah, in ah in power relationships. And um
27:15.96
Vincent Maitre
it’s a really a a state of mind of of being more and more powerful. So the change the the rules ah have changed.
27:27.32
Vincent Maitre
And that’s why I think we, in in Europe, in in all the 27 countries, members of the EU has have to stay connected yeah together, to work together, um to to be strong enough, to be credible enough toward, for instance, the USA or China, e etc. So to me, the biggest challenge is ah um not ah having this reflex of auto-protective politics, but
28:10.36
Vincent Maitre
it’s It’s the opposite. I think we should um be definitely be, um how do you say that, solidar i have solid some solidarity with ah with all all other countries to to to get stronger together than just being isolated and alone. And it’s obvious for Switzerland as a very small country ah geographically in the middle of ah of Europe. alone we are nothing and we will be able to to defend our interests, but with common interests.
28:45.21
Vincent Maitre
And I’m quite confident that we can um we can achieve that with the with the EU, but it will be very, very difficult again because the tendency is actually the…
29:01.78
Vincent Maitre
is on the conservative politics lead lead led sorry by ah by very populistic and nationalistic parties. But we have to explain the population that alone we could we could do nothing and and that we have to stay open on the world.
29:23.02
Dominic Bowen
It’s interesting you use the words isolated and alone, and I think we all understand that those are generally negative negative terms. One of the things that Switzerland is probably most famous for is, other than its chocolate, is actually its neutrality, and ah which is obviously generally considered a a positive ah term, a positive side of the coin. When we look, you also mentioned Putin, and and of course, and I loved your your terminology about not having the same software ah when it comes to democracy. I think that’s an interesting way and a great way of phrasing it.
29:57.24
Dominic Bowen
When we look at Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine, Switzerland’s policy has been really multidimensional. You know, it’s combined humanitarian assistance with economic assistance, but with a strict military neutrality and not supplying armed arms, many of which the Ukrainian government has asked for, at least asked to be able to purchase.
30:17.91
Dominic Bowen
How does Switzerland balance its position as a global centre for international trade and money flows and businesses whilst supporting what it sees as an international wrong, supporting European Union sanctions, but then also recognising the wrongs of what countries, in this example, Russia, is doing? How do you balance that today?
30:42.65
Vincent Maitre
Yeah. that Again, as ah as a lawyer, i have to be very clear on the definition, for instance, of the neutrality. Neutrality is a military concept. that oh the The legal definition is very clear. It comes from this ah Vienna agreement. I don’t remember the date exactly, but saying very, very precisely that neutral is where if i if I can ah simplify it, is not helping militarily an aggressor or or our a state involved in ah in a war.
31:23.70
Vincent Maitre
That’s it. That doesn’t mean, and it’s it’s’s there’s no single word on on on this Vienna agreement, Vienna convention, about ah economic policy or ah or a diplomatic policy, etc. So that means that what we call in Switzerland a proactive neutral neutrality. We are very, very strict on ah on
31:55.59
Vincent Maitre
the of of of the neutrality in terms of ah military neutrality. We are very strict on it. We respect it fully.
32:06.42
Vincent Maitre
But the ah economic… neutrality or diplomatic neutrality is a more um average definition, and a moving definition. you know, back in the days, for instance, just providing providing helps on a diplomatic level was was already considered as a lack of neutrality. That was probably in the 50s or something like that, or maybe during the Second World War.
32:36.15
Vincent Maitre
um But now, ah it’s It’s obvious for everyone in Switzerland that providing diplomatic help ah between two two states in in war into a war is is ah is completely okay with the with the neutrality and it doesn’t affect it at all. So what I want to say is that we can i mean we need to to keep our real ah values in terms of a can I say that in moral terms? For instance, we cannot continue dealing, for instance, with an mean an invader, like like Russia is doing now. So that’s why Switzerland chose to bring the economical sanctions towards the holly the Russian holigarch, etc. And it’s it’s completely… um
33:35.74
Vincent Maitre
okay with the with the definition of neutrality. Being mutual doesn’t mean we have no rules, no morals, and we continue ah doing business in any conditions with with criminal states, for instance.
33:53.37
Dominic Bowen
Thanks very much for explaining that, Vincent. And the final question is the one I ask all of our guests on the podcast. So when you look around the world, what are the risks that concern you the most? and as a politician, which are the ones you think governments and business leaders are still underestimating?
34:13.08
Vincent Maitre
I would say the the main issue, the biggest concern concern is probably that ah the biggest powers on Earth, like the US, like China, etc.,
34:33.21
Vincent Maitre
lose definitely their ability or the their opportunity to to discuss and to… um to deal on the same level playing field.
34:46.94
Vincent Maitre
So to me, the strict ah concurrence and the strict ah
34:56.39
Vincent Maitre
powers relationships will probably destroy the relationships between all the the countries. and And to me, we really, really need a soft powers. We definitely need to enforce and to to increase the multilateralism, the negotiations, the diplomatic platforms towards, i mean, between all the older the countries in the world and specifically the biggest ones. If we lose this ability to discuss together, we i think we are definitely lost.
35:38.97
Dominic Bowen
Yeah, I think that’s a great point. So thanks very much for raising that, Vincent. And thank you very much for coming on the International Risk Podcast today.
35:46.30
Vincent Maitre
Thank you, too it was a pleasure. Excuse again my my English, which is very, very rusty and basic, but i’m not the I don’t have the opportunity to practice it every day, so I hope it will be understandable for your ah your auditors.
35:59.64
Dominic Bowen
for For sure. As long as you forgive my ah my terrible pronunciation of your your your name.
36:04.89
Vincent Maitre
No worries.
36:04.98
Dominic Bowen
But we’ll call it even. Well, that was a great conversation with Vincent Matre. I really appreciated hearing his thoughts today on how Swiss direct democracy actually works about the 10 million referendum and and what that tells us about local empowerment and the sort of issues that Switzerland’s and the European Union is working through. Today’s podcast was produced and coordinated by Celia Irving. I’m Dominic Bowen, your host. Thanks very much for listening to the International Risk Podcast. We’ll speak again soon.
