Episode 88: Roz Etwaria on Inclusivity, Equity and the War on Women

In this episode, Dominic speaks to Roz Etwaria, a social justice practitioner, and equity, diversity, and inclusion consultant. They discuss the war on women,  representation in politics, as well as the need for promoting wage equality along with a more diverse and inclusive workforce and workplace.

Visit Roz website RozEtwaria.com and LinkedIn

International Risk Podcast Interview transcript:

Dominic Bowen 00:04.18
Hi I’m Dominic and the host of The International Risk Podcast . Today we are joined by Roz Etwaria. She is a social justice practitioner and an equity, diversity and inclusion consultant. She’s a regular public speaker on topics including child sexual abuse black lives matter, and the war on women. Roz welcome to the podcast.

Roz Etwaria 00:26.76
Thank you! It’s a pleasure to be here.

Dominic Bowen 00:31.86
Roz I’m very excited and very keen to learn during our conversation today. The international risk podcast was founded with the aim to help government and business leaders identify mitigate and reduce risks through education and conversation. And the topics you specialise in are sensitive I think they’re scary for many people and they’re filled with very powerful language. So I need your patience as we carefully unpack these just critically important topics that present significant risks internationally but huge opportunities all around the world. But also. In our own homes. So I’m going to start by asking a question I know you can help us explore now my quest for knowledge and greater understanding is really insatiable. I’m a lifelong learner and it’s one of the reasons I get so excited about meeting interesting and thoughtful people like you. Ros. And in recent months I’ve asked a couple of different women who regularly post on social media about the hashtag war on women and I’ve tried to unpack with them and I explain what the war on women is and unfortunately for me the answer I’ve been getting is oh I don’t know I’m just reposting other people’s content. And I understand why that occurs but I want the answer. I want to really understand and I can draw links and I can assume but I’m a white male. So it’s not really for me to to decide and define what the war on women is but I know this is something that you do speak about how. Perhaps you can help us define what the war on women is and and how can we help contribute to positive change because we want to remove that frustration or people or scaredness that people have to understand this topic. So can you start by unpacking that for us.

Roz Etwaria 02:20.40
I don’t call it a war on women though I understand the terminology. I think we live in a society where industrialization has caused huge problems now. Were problems before industrialization. So if you look at things like the bible and other structured religions you find that women were always secondary to men and you have this idea that we came from Adam’s rib. No people, we didn’t. That’s not what happened and throughout time the strength of men and let’s accept men are physically about 60% stronger than women. Nothing wrong with that at all. But with that strength doesn’t come necessarily intelligence. Men are not more intelligent than women and there’s an idea that men are more intelligent than women therefore they can do science. They’ll be good at arithmetic. They’ll be good at maths they can parallel park I could parallel park no problem that men can read maps and women can’t so. And with that comes an idea of lesser pay and that lesser pay isn’t just about two people doing the same job but it comes with this, housework, the domestic chores. The caring isn’t valued therefore women don’t get paid for that. There seems to be no value to it. Now when you do that what you’re doing is you’re taking highly intelligent, really clever people and saying to them: They don’t have as much value because they don’t have the same out with the parents as a man. So that manifests in UK: women are paid 16% less. There’s this whole argument about women going through the glass ceiling. The reason I stop and pause there and say this isn’t about a war on women is because I don’t think those are the things alone that we should be considering. I’m a hood feminist. Women own 10% of the land in the world. 10% of all the land in the world is owned by women, women farmers who are greater in number than male farmers. They are not acknowledged, therefore what’s happening in climate change isn’t acknowledged, the difficulty of having a child is not acknowledged. So we could look at it from the BIPOC black indigenous and people of color’s perspective and I can tell you 1 in 4 black women died in the united kingdom what’s given birth. But if we pull back out and we look at it through the larger lens we will find unpaid work laws that affect women whether or not they are in the united kingdom

So let’s look at abortion as you know in America it has been held no longer to be legal generally. However, it’s not legal in the uk, you need two doctors to say this is where you need to be, irrespective of if you’ve been raped by a family member or an outsider. An expectation that you will carry that child to term; what does that say about the woman or the child in terms of their mental health that they’re expected to carry this child to term? What does it say in terms of the fact that in Russia you can now beat your wife? What does it say in parts of South America, the women who miscarry can be put in jail for not holding their baby. Those things are a misunderstanding a lack of caring. Or a control trip over how women should be seen and viewed and I think it gets skewed because everybody’s talking about going through the glass glass ceiling. There were a lot of women who are in small businesses. They are CEOs. They’re not earning the big bucks but they are ceos. So they are are out there and I think that the conversation is about how do we treat women in the same way for the same value as we do men equality of value whether they are women black women, indigenous women, women of color and without the root of the woman we don’t actually get man. So there’s a lot to be said for how we value them and the caring becomes with women, and the important thing about being with a feminist – really important because i’m feminist through my father – is this men need to get out of the cold concrete cages of masculinity. They should be allowed to cry, wear a skirt if you want – who cares! – you wear makeup, you want to pierce your ear go for it! But why should you be less involved with your children. They’re your children too. Why should you not be allowed to say I can’t cope and if you’re earning less than me, why shouldn’t I pay for the day. Why should it be you. So there’s 2 things here isn’t there; there is the fact that men need to be freed of where they are being held with toxic masculinity or golden masculinity – if you like the idea of being James James Bond – because suicide rate tells me it’s wrong. There are more men between the ages of thirty five and forty four taking their life. So if classic masculinity if golden masculinity is right? Then why we lose in men at an alarming rate.

So for me, it’s about how do we value everybody in society. But how do we get women to have equal value to men I got the answer so you let me know when you’re ready for it.

Dominic Bowen 08:47
Thank you so much I mean gosh there’s so much in there. A lot of people are probably listening to this podcast and this conversation Roz on their way into work today. What does that mean I think if you ask the average person. do you consider men and women equal and is there equality? Most people would probably say yes because we’ve least got that level of understanding and in 2022 but as you’ve made very very clear There isn’t that same equality of value. What can we do practically what does that mean in the workplace. What policies you should we be looking at, what conversation should we be having or what questions should we be asking ourself when we’re in that quiet spot? And we can just sort of ask ourselves and reflect on our own behaviors?

Roz Etwaria 09:32
I think the question to ask oneself and I think is one of the most important things that we have in life. It’s also the most difficult to actually ask yourself the deep questions I think it’s William Yates that said it’s more dangerous, than being on the battlefield. So. It’s not an easy thing to ask ourselves and the glib answer of we are equal. We know it’s not true if we sat down and we spoke to ourselves honestly, we know it’s not true because we’ve got our earns and insecurities that we bring to any conversation that we have. That’s why it’s important to look at oneself. So how do we change what we look at ourselves in the quiet moments that you dominique referred to and we ask ourselves what it is about us that makes us insecure? That can’t give another human being the quality they deserve? What is it? About the messages in society that says it’s okay to tear a woman apart on a witness stand where consent has been given to sex? What is it in our society that allows women who have taken the life of a male abusive partner to end up in jail with longer prison sentences than men who murder women. Why is it that we live in the society that’s equal but 2 women a week are taken out in the uk the same is similar in the United States by a male partner or an ex-partner that doesn’t smack of equality. It smacks of a society that doesn’t deal with its issues and those issues are personal so we need to ask ourselves in those quiet moments. What can I do to make myself a nobler version of who I was yesterday. So you’ve gathered now that I’m a spiritual person. So yeah I am and I think it is about asking ourselves the really tough questions and then voting with our hearts and not where it sits because that tends to lead to the war with government. America is a good example of that 51% of women voted for a man who thought it was okay to touch a woman, inappropriately 51% of white women voted for Donald Trump so this isn’t a male question. This is an ask question men and women have to ask ourselves and we have to ask ourselves why it is – and I love this one because I take this one into the workplace – Why don’t we have a policy in the workplace that speaks to women who are perimenopausal. There’s a change in mood. Hormones are changing. Yeah we all work from the chemical hormones in our brain. So why doesn’t every organization have a policy that says there will be a mood change therefore we need to manage our relationship with our female employees differently. But we don’t have that in the workplace. We don’t have structured conversations in the workplace that say let’s be honest about what people earn and open the books and then we can see how much men are being paid. How much women are being paid. It’s a respect that comes from feeling secure in ourselves and the best people the people who move forward The people who recognize things that come up that perhaps shortcoming may be too Strong. A word. But it’s those learning curves that we have to learn individually when we deal with those individually. We become new versions of Ourselves. We really do so that’s the starting point asking ourselves in that quiet moment: What is it about me that doesn’t feel that this person is worthy.

Dominic Bowen 13:39.30
And yeah I think that’s really strong Roz and I see lewis writes a lot about that and I think that’s a fantastic place to start. I think leadership is really important. I love working for good leaders and really learning from them and following them and helping. Helping to be part of a team that’s moving forward and I think that’s why politicians are so important, not just because they get things done but for the inspiration they hope you leave us with. You gave an example before of a politician that’s being called narcissistic, misogynistic, racists and a variety of other things. But you’re in the Uk right now and the UK has recently gone through the tory leadership debate on face value. There seem to be a diverse and healthy balance of genders and skin tones. But the policies of the conservatives that the tory leaders still seem to be anti-diversity. What risks did you see in the recent tory leadership debates and and what are the potential long-term risks for the Uk society.

Roz Etwaria 14:39.51
I think the whole idea of diversity and inclusion for the Tory leadership was an illusion. You are absolutely right Dominic, there were people of different shades and there were women in there, but that doesn’t mean to say that they’re inclusive. It just shows one element. It’s equality or I like to say equity diversity and inclusion and what you have with them is a diverse look of people not so much in terms of their value system now excessive inequality harms economic growth. The UK has the top 1% of households that have 230 times more wealth than the bottom 10 cut in taxes doesn’t change that inequality, it adds to it and this is evidence from the IMF suggests that high levels of inequality actually acts as a drag on economic growth and as you know there’s not a lot of economic growth going on at the moment. Alan Kruger he’s the chairman of the council of economic advisors so he worked with people like president Barack Obama. He calls it `The break gatsby’ curve social mobility is lower in countries where income inequality is higher. So to put it simply the rich are better off where you have inequality in countries like. the UK and they make it harder for the parents of poor children to climb up the ladder.

So what we need is an interventionalist government, one that tackles regional inequality. So I know we’ve got this idea which is leveling up in the UK but it doesn’t really work. You see. We’ve never had the conversation about inequality itself because it’s not seen as a problem but it has risen significantly in this country and none of the tory leaders. Ah, talking about in equality. They’re not talking about how do we share or redistribute the prosperity fund which is vital if we are going to tackle inequality and therefore tackle inclusion. And we need different faces so we’ve got different skin tones. But we don’t have different faces of politics. They’re all from the tory leadership, all talking about 1 of 2 things austerity which hasn’t really got us a lot further in the UK because we still have huge massive inequality issues and tax cuts which only benefit the rich.

So the latest round that was being suggested of changing the tax rises would have effectively given people earning. More than £50000 a year 49% of the money that was coming, and of course they were in the smallest band, so tax cuts aren’t the way, not what we have to address. We’re really going to talk about tackling difference. We have to have the big conversation which is around how do we deal with inequality and equality through poverty. How do we make the education system better for our children. Not these huge vast academies where fast head teachers are being paid phenomenal amounts of money, private schools smaller classes more teachers far wider curriculums. They’re charitable organizations so there’s payments that they get away with in the UK. Larger schools, large classes are not by themselves a bad thing. But what’s expected of the teachers in the classrooms with people of mixed ability coming through the state system is not realistic because half of their work is to feed the children, clothe the children and by that I mean, schools are now washing children’s clothes schools, are now providing food because so many children are turning up to school without a breakfast, therefore they can’t actually think about the work that they need to do so. It’s not about taxes. It’s not about what people look like the real diversity for me is about tackling things like the minimum wage. An idea which was from the labour party that was taken by the Tory party. It’s about reducing child poverty. It’s about changing the way. Have expenses distributed in the UK and just to back that up over here. We’ve got 6.7% of people who are economically active in the population but they were underemployed so they’re working. The numbers gone up of people who are underemployed but they’re not being paid for what they do other solutions self-employment startup grants for people on low incomes increase welfare assistance and tax credits. Of course raise the minimum wage. And I think it was the Joseph Browntree foundation that says increasing property taxes on the wealthiest will actually make a difference to the amount of money in government coffers. That’s another way to level up, to use the governments. Terminology but I’m not talking about their policy when they say that, that’s another way that we can make a difference. We have to tackle Inequality, Minimum wages for money but goes into taxes everybody should be paying taxes. Every company should be paying taxes. Taxes pay for well-educated workforce, pays for the roads to get the goods transport just like I had to delivery today to get from from the warehouse to get to one’s home. We need good roads that comes out of central government funding. But if not everybody’s putting in why should some people be getting more this whole idea that we should pay these huge corporations to take people on to work experience. They’re doing a proper job. Why aren’t we paying them a proper wage instead. They’re getting benefits from the government I don’t like the word but benefits they’re getting support from the government but not a proper living wage. That’s wrong. So it doesn’t matter what sex you are and it doesn’t matter what colour you are if you are somebody who is not looking at the basic argument that inequality in itself is a problem. And that problem will remain and it’s one that the Tory government is not tackling. They’re certainly talking about race if you want to know all about policies to send people out of the country who’ve been here for a long time. The windrush generation, but about that and that’s coming out of the mouths of bipot people.
Black, indigenous and people of color because the home secretary Priti Patel she is of asian descent. We need to tackle inequality and when we start to tackle that then we can start looking at whether or not we are being diverse. Once you tackle poverty inequality you’re tackling diversity and inclusion. It’s important to include people in what’s happening.

Dominic Bowen 22:42.90
Unquestionably. We’ve had some tremendous guests on the international risk podcast and talk about intelligence Analysis risk assessments corporate culture and consistency and you know it’s all about helping people be have better companies Bank Better decisions Conduct Better Analysis. Pursue Opportunities and minimize risks you just spoke about the state level and and why Inequality leads to a drag on the country’s economy and and several other really valuable points for business leaders. Why do you think? Diversity is so important for executives and middle managers to understand and live by.

Roz Etwaria 23:26
It’s not diversity. We have workforces around the world that are made up of people who are black, who are white, who are german… we have diversity. We need to have diversity inclusion and equality. The reason is that the talent that you can get from people is unbelievable. The things that people can create for a business. The ideas ideas are not. Owned by white middle class men, nor they owned by white middle class women or by white people or by black people. People have ideas. It’s the greatest gift we’ve got it is our god Einstein will tell you you know this: “Logic will take you from a to b, your imagination will take you everywhere”. We all have great imaginations. So what you want to do is create a culture where people are respected and they are appreciated and the ideas will flow the business will flow on the practical level. The West is an aging population most people here in the Uk are at that end when they’re going into retirement the youngest population on the planet is actually and the fastest going is on the continent of Africa.
You want growth for your business it’s not really going to be just about the UK is it. You have to now appeal to a wider market so you need to have that diversity of ideas to get people involved just told you that we’ve got an age in population. We need to bring in people who are younger whether they’re from Europe or whether they’re from further away. So we need to have working environments where we’re bringing in the new ideas, where we’re bringing in the new talent, where we’re bringing in people who will encourage others to buy in to the market. We’ve gotten a mobile phone saturated market in the UK got to sell to other people got to find new ideas. That’s why it’s important in terms of the bottom line if you want to sell to a wider market. You have to seem to be speaking to that wider market. There are no monopoly on ideas. We want people wherever they’re from to be involved in the workplace because they’re bringing in ideas that will make a change. Tristan Walker for example, he’s american and has a company called seco and he was somebody that has the most revolutionary ideas around leadership. He took a million-pound company and made it a billion-pound company because he has such a diversity and inclusion within the workplace. We don’t want automatons. We want people who are thinking with ideas to make the workplace the working environment our product, our services better. That’s why it’s important.

Dominic Bowen 26:48
And it’s such a fantastic pointer I’m not sure if you know Tristan Walker or you’ve heard his stories before but Tristan Walker founded a company that focuses on black men’s skin care and the specific needs that people like him have when shaving and he tells the story and he tells it so well I’m not going to do it justice here Roz, but he made the pitch 72 times, he not only made the phone calls and did all the legwork but actually got face-to-face with investors to invest in his company and he had a great product. You to hear him tell the story. It was clearly a fantastic product and he notes that on 72 times he got rejected and on most of those occasions by a room full of white men and women he was told: “There’s no need in the market for this”. And not one of them said “well I’m not I’m not aware”, all of them were white investors and all of them said there is no need for this black man’s skin care product. And yeah, the fact that he was staying there as a black man saying to them. No, there is a need, I need this and and my friends need this and I know many people that have done this and here’s the research I’ve done on it and it was only seventy third pitch that someone said “that’s an awesome idea”. And then you know now he’s a very very successful business and paved the way for so many other people to follow in his his footsteps but I think it highlights your your point of so well that you know you can’t have 1 demographic making all the decisions about what opportunities to pursue, what risk to mitigate. You need everyone from the front of house staff to the executives to the drivers, to the factory workers, to the old, to the young because they’re all going to have different risks. They’re all going to see the company’s opportunities and the company’s risk was such different lenses. But I think we just miss that if we just pay at lip service.

Roz Etwaria 28:39
We do we we miss that and we miss the human aspect of the working environment. You don’t get the best from people when they go into work and it’s boring, with the same people, with the same attitudes, with the same ideas. So that’s another aspect. You’ve got the actual productivity side of coming up with ideas to do things but you want to be in a nice place. You want to speak to nice people in services. Not all white people in services are nice, not all black people in services are nice. We want nice people in services wherever they have come from. That’s what the important thing is because that’s what keeps your customers coming back and when you have a cultural understanding – and I’m not talking here just about having read the book I’m talking about cultural competence which is a whole new level of understanding, you actually grow your market. So that’s another reason that you want to have it in sometimes somebody doesn’t want to go through 6 buttons on their phone to speak to somebody, and they get somebody for something very tired in another country clearly who hasn’t even got the time of day right? So why aren’t we engaging people in our own time zones who could actually deliver based upon a warmth an understanding to deal with other people. The NHS in the UK be an example. Customer services generally being an example; so people come back. That’s how you reduce your complaint you want complaints in the business because it tells you where it’s going wrong, but you don’t want quick fixes where people get tired and frustrated in the market and it makes it. Easier for them to walk away to somebody else by somebody else I mean another business were not a service provider. So those are the reasons why we need diversity within the workplace. And then I come back to where I started Dominic, and that is what is equitable. Shouldn’t we all have an opportunity to do the things that we want to do? Shouldn’t we all be paid for doing a decent job? Do we not all deserve that? Should it be that groups are marginalized because of the color of their skin or because they happen to be the ones that give Birth. So there’s many reasons why? but the most important for me is equality bringing equity to the workplace because work isn’t just about work. We spend more time at work than we do with our families. Needs to be a good place for our mental wellbeing and that’s why you need diverse people because no one, race, sex, height, size has a monopoly on being a good employee.

Dominic Bowen 31:47
When you’re working with businesses Roz what strategies do you employ to help workplaces down the path of maturity towards being more equal more inclusive more appropriately diverse?

Roz Etwaria 32:03
So I start with listening to the actual employees to voice my starting point and I always say to employers you have problems because we need to listen to the employees. So we so listen to them and therefore we educate the leaders start with listening to what the issues are then educate the people who are leaders – I have problems with the term leadership so I’m going to change it to “managers” – I don’t believe in leadership but I do believe you have managed people who have the responsibility to manage teams groups and goals and those managers need to listen and understand who the employees are and what the employees need, as well as what the goals and alignment of the business are because quite often. The values attributed to the business. Dusty pieces of Policy. No longer stuck in books but stuck on computers somewhere at the back that were dealt with June orientation and then they say why have we got cultural problems because they’re not living up necessarily to the values that are important. So listen to the employees, then educate your leaders, then make sure that the goals and the progress that you wanted in terms of your organization is actually measured but the values and the goals have to marry up.
Otherwise what are you measuring? You can say that you’re an honest open equal workforce. But then when you actually look at it. You’re not because you can see you’ve got more men than women or you’re paying different rates of pay or the holiday leave. Different or some people are having holiday and others aren’t or something I often find you’ve got what I call the Guinness Effect. It’s white at top and black at the bottom. There are no black people being promoted upwards. You have the odd woman up there but you don’t have anybody of colour. There’s no POC people there. Then I always have the strategy of celebrating employee differences so important because that helps with cultural competence and then very importantly, change things around so have inclusive effective. Meetings give credit where it’s due – seems small but it’s huge in companies where the manager writes their name to the report written by the assistant that do that. If you’ve got an idea from someone, recognize it because our ideas -something that we come up with- is so close to our hearts. That’s our value, that is our real value and people want a thank you people want to be recognized for that. So Those are the things that I put in place. So just to put them into a conclusion listen to your employees.
And to do that I have cultural ambassadors so I tend to introduce cultural ambassadors into an organization they can therefore educate the leaders managers then we can work on what are the goals and the values of the organization. And they come in together underneath, celebrate employee differences and then make sure that all meetings are inclusive and that they are effective. So things like distributing the materials in advance. Share the questions that are going to be discussed get everybody around the boardroom table. Dominic you might say but was that’s kind of pie in the sky I’ll take you back to Ricardo Centrer that I mentioned earlier at his board meetings at the very top of his company. He has 2 seats anybody can walk up and take those 2 seats. It doesn’t even matter if they’re the cleaner because they too are part of the company and have something effective that they can contribute. You don’t know what it is. Because you’ve never asked them if you look at some of the big names in terms of businesses. So I think it’s the marriott hotel I think that was started by a h guy who used to have hot dogs in America.
The idea of the holiday inn was an ordinary guy who wanted a place to stay overnight with his child. It became a big business idea. Ideas are not necessarily not necessarily the preserve of well-educated people who went to ivy league or Cambridge. You look at some of the most successful business people entrepreneurs that’s not necessarily where they came from and of course I have to throw in Steve Jobs at this point because yeah, he didn’t graduate but it’s not the preserve of them. And if you find passionate people within your organization and you will, people who are doing what they want to do, then you need to listen to them because they are not necessarily at the top. They are spread out within your organization and when you include them, there’s your inclusivity. And they come from a range of backgrounds but you treat them with equal respect. They’re your equity. Then your company has nothing other to do than grow and become a better version of itself.

Dominic Bowen 37:53
And it’s such a fantastic point I remember Janine Van Hu – she’s a communications specialist and we had her on the podcast about a year ago – August 2021 – and she tells the story; She was doing some work with a company and 1 of their leaders. And when she came to reception she introduced herself and said who she was here to see. The receptionist made a phone call and then invited her to take a seat and then the receptionist actually leaned over to her and said what’s he like and Jeanine said: “what’s who like”? She goes “the managing director” and Janine went “What do you mean.” and the receptor said “oh I’ve never met him I’ve just heard about him”. And it’s just amazing that I would say one of the most important people in the company, your front of house staff, the people that greet all of your customers all your visitors that are faced to your business has never met what some people consider the most important the managing director or the CEO. It’s just so amazing that those 2 had never crossed paths and she had to ask a complete stranger what her boss was actually like and I think it tells a lot about you know that inclusion in some workplaces and the diversity of opinions that that certain people are hearing.

Roz Etwaria 39:02
So I do I totally understand that and I I agree with that and I think it is incumbent upon hire managers to meet with all of the staff though in reality I know that our influence sphere. Hundred and fifty people that’s roughly our influence fair. So if you’re in a company of over 1000 people. You feel that you only have a direct relation to your group. But if you can influence hundred and fifty people they too can influence 150 people and we can make change. So if it’s just once a year that the senior executive team the executive management team get together and meet the members of staff then they should do it because otherwise they become out of contact and when things go pear-shad as they inevitably will at some point for organizations. You won’t have staff who are stubborn or who feel disinterested but you’ll have staff who feel engaged and it is absolutely doable because I’ve seen it and I’ve done it. You can work. Thousand people and have a thousand people at some point feeling absolutely engaged in your business and they only say at some point because a woman might be going through something a man might be going through something at home. So there are moments when we will disengage but can we have active engaged workforces that actually push the business forward.

Dominic Bowen 40:45
Roz, there are so many questions I want to unpack with you and so many topics I want to keep exploring with you. But I know we’re running over time a little bit but I just want to ask you 1 more question. I think I’m going to have to ask you to come back on for another interview at some point another conversation. But when we look to the future, what are the main risks that concern you?

Roz Etwaria 41:08
Poverty. What inequality it offers me because we have the 1% of the 1% who are far richer if you look at what’s happened out of the pandemic. All the statistics show. Those already had have a great deal more those who had less have even less people are becoming disheartened. I am worried about the world’s suicide rate, I’m talking about the world’s suicide rate where more and more people seem to be taking their lives. I am worried about the fact that men are not breadwinners or feel that burden therefore they feel they’re not living up to this imaginary standard that we created and they’re taking their lives. We need to make each and every person feel as if they have. Equal value inequality is killing us in our personal lives in our family lives and in our work lives look at the numbers of people that are taking their lives at work. That’s because they don’t feel value because of inequity we need to change that we can have corporations. We can have value for the employee we can have value for the employer. We can share out some of these bonuses. It doesn’t have to be just the people at the top having bonuses we can share out John Lewis in the UK brilliant example of looking after their staff, who care about the people that they work with who care about the human connection. We need equity and we need it now.

Dominic Bowen 43:15
Ah, fantastic and thanks very much for sharing that Roz and glad you highlighted the example of John Lewis you and I spoke earlier about there are so many risks there are so many things to be concerned about but there is also some fantastic opportunities and some people doing some some really tremendous things and and if you’d be kind enough I’d love to have you on the podcast again and maybe we can explore some of the really positive stories and what’s being done and some successes that we’re seeing and I know you do a lot of work in quite a few different areas and it would be great to explore that further. Thank you very much for coming on The International Risk Podcast today Roz.

Roz Etwaria 43:52
I will be more than happy to come back dominate because there’s all the work I do around littleroy.org and childhood sexual abuse and the soul lot of work needs to be there and we haven’t even touched on the mental health in work. I would love to come back and this was a pleasure to spend time with you today to thank you for that.

Dominic Bowen 44:12
Thanks very much Roz. I’m Dominic Bowen and I really appreciate you hearing Roz’ thoughts about diversity equity inclusion and so many other really interesting topics will link to some of Roz’ work in the show notes and I hope you can join us next week.

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