Episode 365: After the Fighting Stops: Landmines, Recovery and the Cost of Conflict with James Denselow and The HALO Trust

In this episode we explore the lasting impact of landmines. Across Ukraine, Syria, Myanmar, Afghanistan, and dozens of other conflict-affected countries, landmines and unexploded ordnance continue to kill, injure, and displace civilians long after wars have ended. Fields cannot be farmed, schools cannot reopen, refugees cannot safely return home, and communities remain trapped by the hidden legacy of conflict beneath their feet.

This is not only a humanitarian issue. Landmine contamination affects food security, economic recovery, infrastructure development, migration, investment, political stability, and long-term human security. From Ukraine’s agricultural heartlands to villages in Myanmar and post-conflict communities in Syria, explosive remnants of war continue to shape how people live, travel, rebuild, and recover.

Today on The International Risk Podcast, we are joined by The HALO Trust Director of Strategy James Denselow. With more than two decades of experience working across conflict and post-conflict environments, including Syria and Lebanon, James has also held roles at Chatham House, Crisis Action, and Save the Children.

The International Risk Podcast brings you conversations with global experts, frontline practitioners, and senior decision-makers who are shaping how we understand and respond to international risk. From geopolitical volatility and organised crime, to cybersecurity threats and hybrid warfare, each episode explores the forces transforming our world and what smart leaders must do to navigate them. Whether you’re a board member, policymaker, or risk professional, The International Risk Podcast delivers actionable insights, sharp analysis, and real-world stories that matter.

Dominic Bowen is the host of The International Risk Podcast and Europe’s leading expert on international risk and crisis management. As Head of Strategic Advisory and Partner at one of Europe’s leading risk management consulting firms, Dominic advises CEOs, boards, and senior executives across the continent on how to prepare for uncertainty and act with intent. He has spent decades working in war zones, advising multinational companies, and supporting Europe’s business leaders. 

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Dominic Bowen In today’s episode of the International Risk Podcast, we examine one of the most persistent outcomes of conflicts, and that’s landmines and the explosive remnants of war.

Dominic Bowen In 2024 alone, at least 6,000 people were killed or injured by mines globally, and 90% of those casualties were victims, and half of them were children.

Dominic Bowen To help us unpack what this means in practice for communities that are trying to live, farm, travel, and rebuild after conflict, and what it means for businesses and future investments, I’m joined by James Dennis Lope.

Dominic Bowen He’s the Director of Strategy at the Halo Trust. James has spent more than two decades working around the world, including in places like Syria and Lebanon, and his’s previously held world and he’s previously held roles at Chatham House, Crisis Action, and Save the Children.

Dominic Bowen James, welcome to the International Lewis Podcast.

James Good to be with you.

Dominic Bowen James, whereabouts in the world do we find you today?

James I’m just outside of London in the UK.

Dominic Bowen Fantastic. Well, James, let’s jump in. It’s an important topic, and I think I’d love to make sure that we really do this justice. Can you help us understand? i mean, landmines kill and injure thousands of people every year still, and the majority of the people that are injured are actually civilians, right? Now, I’ve read that there’s about 110 million landmines buried across 60 countries. Can you explain where in the world are landmines still being used and and why and where is this problem most acute today?

James Well, there’s several questions there. and I think the first thing to to do is focus on on what this weapon is and why it has such a sort of persistent long tail story of harm behind it. There are hundreds of different types of landmines. There are anti-personnel landmines, there are anti-tank landmines, there are landmines that rely on explosives to kill, there are landmines that rely on fragmentation to injure. But the key point about these weapons, especially in an era where we talk increasingly about high-tech autonomous weapons, is that in a way they are autonomous, albeit in a very old-fashioned sense, they’ve been around since the American Civil War, but they are slow-motion weapons of mass destruction in the sense that as soon as they’ve been planted and activated, they can stay perfectly well hidden under the ground for decades after any particular conflict has finished, which is why when we look at the work the Halo Trust does across over 30 countries, many of these are legacy conflicts that that finished decades ago. We’re still doing clearance, for instance, in areas that are affected by World War Two. So it’s that long tail effect of the weapon and the fact that it can it can survive far beyond the conflict it was originally designed to be used in And of course, then it and changes the entire relationship people have with their land, whether that’s in in agricultural areas or in urban areas. I’ve seen that myself when I visited minefields. You go from what is ah safe land to the other side of red sticks, what could potentially kill you? And that’s the, it’s a very sort of human relationship with our with our own land. And the idea that landmines completely alter that is is devastating, not just in terms of the casualties, which of course of the most obvious cause, consequence of these weapons, but also the way that people are denied the use of these land. They cannot farm on it. They cannot build schools on it. They cannot return to it. So it really is a terrible weapon, which is why there’s such a a kind of global effort to see it not used and ultimately get to a place where we can celebrate the world being mine free. And there are certain countries that have celebrated that in the last 12 months, Oman and Croatia, with Mozambique somewhat behind 10 years ago. But we’re close now to sri Lanka and and Zimbabwe joining that list too.

Dominic Bowen that’s some really positive news. And look I’d love to unpack that as well during our conversation. But I mentioned at the start that of the thousands of civilian casualties every year, about 50% of them are children.

James But in each of these thousands of civilians

Dominic Bowen Can you help us understand why is that? And and why are some demographics more vulnerable?

James Well, often, I mean the the key point around children being particularly disproportionately at risk from these weapons. And I used to work at Save the Children and we saw this happen, unfortunately, particularly in areas where there had been protracted civil conflicts and and then population movements around those conflicts. And I think we’re seeing that today in Syria, which is, according to recent data, the second most dangerous place when it comes to landmines. But I think actually, in reality, it’s the first. because of under-reporting and the sort of the tail between the data coming in and it being officially recognised. So when you have people returning to an area that’s been heavily affected by conflict, often children will be out and about exploring, playing, being children, and they will come across things that they don’t recognise, not just landmines, but also unexploded ordnance. These things will look shiny, they will look different. and often they end up picking them up, playing with them or accidentally triggering them, which is why they are at higher risk. And of course, the injuries that children occur through these weapons is a different type of injury to that from adults in the sense that if a child loses a limb, that is a ah lifelong injury in the sense of recovery while they are growing, which of course has huge effects for their ability to go to school, to find employment and and beyond. So it really is a ah terrible legacy, particularly on children. And i’ve I’ve seen too many stories, unfortunately,

James of of children triggering these devices. i remember one particular one in Afghanistan where children came across ah an unexploded RPG warhead in the morning very early before the rest of their family woken up and were sort of playing catch with it.

James And it and it detonated, killing half of a large family and severely wounding the others to a point of this lifetime of of care.

Dominic Bowen you

James So unfortunately, children are at the the front end of those who suffer from the weapon long after the conflicts are finished.

Dominic Bowen Yeah, i mean, just absolutely shocking. And you you made me think about some time I had the real blessing of being able to work with some Burmese independence groups in Myanmar many, many years ago. And, you know, even even still today, I understand at least 2000 people are killed every year in in the border of regions in Myanmar because of landmines and explosive ordnance.

Dominic Bowen and at least 86% of them are ah civilians. And you know I understand that the Junta’s use of landmines across Myanmar is very significant and mining rice fields and and farmlands and even villages.

Dominic Bowen How does the use of landmines in places like Myanmar tell us about how the conflict is evolving and and how does it shape the daily life for the communities that have to you know live amongst them?

James Well, I guess you have to go back to how landmines are ah sort of, in theory, used by military actors for military ends. Often it’s the defence of an area, a base or a particular facility or trying to channel an opposing force into a particular direction away from where you’ve laid the landmines. Or you then find, in other cases, indiscriminate use, where there is little in the way of rhyme or reason as to where they are placed and used, which of course makes the the likelihood of of people not knowing that they are in actually in a minefield or in mine-effected area far higher.

James And so this varies and incredibly depending on the type of conflict we’re seeing. It’s ah and a conventional conflict between Russia and Ukraine. It’s very different from a a civil war or a conflict with many non-state armed groups, as you see in Myanmar.

James But ultimately the effects are the same. the the more you the longer you have people living in close proximity to these weapons and uncertainties of where exactly they are, the higher the the resulting numbers of of injuries and deaths, let alone the other parts of this story, which we don’t talk about as much.

James But if people cannot farm their farmland, if people cannot go to school, if people cannot access clean water because of the presence of these weapons, that often leads to people leaving the country or leaving that part of the country and That is part of the explanation between the record levels of internal displacement we see in this day and age, as well as external refugee movement.

Dominic Bowen Thank you.

James And in places like Syria, despite there being a sort of relative peace over the last year or so, the numbers of refugees who have returned back to the country is not as high as many would have thought, partly because of the high levels of contamination in in in the country.

James And our Syria team sees that on a daily basis, not just landmines, but some incredibly advanced weaponry and dangerous weaponry, even chemical weaponry, that means that people are very reluctant to take their families back ah back to live in these places.

Dominic Bowen and And you mentioned Syria. I had the real benefit of being in Syria about five or six weeks ago, an an absolutely beautiful country, you know amazingly welcoming and and friendly yeah people over and above the just ridiculously good food.

Dominic Bowen But as you said, you know still heavily contaminated by the remnants of war. And I understand in the first six months of 2025, there was about a thousand casualties from UXOs and ERWs.

James as quickly as in 2025, five

Dominic Bowen You know, you you mentioned earlier that, you know, they can remain and and landmines can sometimes remain unexploded for for decades. And you just mentioned their chemical weapons. What does this mean for communities that are trying to go back to their lands, whether they’re farmers or business people in cities, when there is these unexploded remnants that are sitting there potentially for decades unexposed? What does that mean for these communities?

James Well, it fundamentally affects their relationship with their their land, with the areas that they live in. And and let’s not just think about this happening in in the sort of conflict or recent post-conflict period. There’s, of course, still large levels of unexploded ordnance in places like in Europe. In you know Berlin, there was a large evacuation of tens of thousands of people recently because of the discovery of an unexploded World War II bomb. Every year we hear the stories of the iron harvest from World War i in the French-Belgium but part of the country. So, you know, landmines and unexploded weapons can have, you know, as i say, decades can be hidden in the ground peacefully for decades until they affect a population. I was in Kosovo a couple of years ago, seeing some of the Halo work clearing cluster munitions that were, again, these are weapons that are not designed to, they’re not they’re not hidden underground, they they often are found at the surface.

James But on the field that the team was clearing, they were aware of an unexploded thousand pound bomb that was down 30 meters beneath that field but of course that’s at no risk risk to people unless they start to decide to to build a hotel on that on that field on that site so again it it changes the relationship with with the land it changes your your whole approach to to risk there and i think in in syria it’s a case of you know a very long civil conflict that that involved conventional weapons uh ieds and lots of other things we we’re not so familiar with.

James And then we have the sort of large scale population movement that’s followed and and a huge need there. But of course, Syria’s needs are vast in other respects as well. it’s not just landmine clearance that Syria needs following this this devastating civil war. But without landmine clearance, you can’t do other things, which is why often we see our role as a sort of accelerant of other functions. I think if you look at humanitarian mine action, it it contributes to 11 the 13 sustainable development goals because of course it allows other things to happen and I see that also in in other places the world like Ukraine lot of the work we do is clearing agricultural fields that allow Ukraine, the bread basket of the world, to to regain that ability to export large quantities of wheat which help address food insecurity in in the Horn of Africa. So everything is joined up. ah The role we have, which is of course ah a very specialist technical role, is is part of ah of a global ecosystem of a humanitarian response, but also one that ah leads towards greater human security, which unfortunately in in an era of greater increasing conflicts is more needed than ever.

Dominic Bowen Yeah, unquestionably. and And thanks very much for mentioning Ukraine, because from what I understand, Ukraine has about 144,000 square kilometres of territory that are contaminated by mines and the unexploded ordnance from Russia’s illegal invasion. And from what I understand, that makes it the largest…

Dominic Bowen mine challenges in the world. Can you tell us how the contamination across Ukraine that’s affecting agriculture, and you mentioned the breadbasket of the world, and that was something that that certainly we spoke a lot about in 2022, and sadly so much of that agricultural production capacity has stopped because of mining, because of conflict, but also how this contamination affects not just agriculture, but reconstruction and mobility of civilians. And Even if the war was to stop tomorrow, what this would mean for Ukraine’s economy and its recovery from the war?

James Yes, well, I mean, again, the the impact of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has had so many impacts, it’s hard to sort of to know where to start. But of course, when I was in Ukraine, it was very I was very struck by, from when you speak to speak to Ukrainians, the perspective is that any part of the country where there was once a Russian force is an area where there is potential contamination.

James Most obviously because where where the Russians, especially when they got close to Kyiv, laid minefields for their own forces as they were advancing and then retreating. Or obviously the the huge issue of of mines and unexploded ordnance closer to the front line in the east, which there is a sort of buffer area area of at least 30 kilometers away from which ah humanitarian mine action doesn’t happen. But of course Ukraine is a huge ah huge issue and it’s our biggest program as the Halo Trust. We’re determined to be there through till Ukraine one day reaching mine free status, which is know absolutely the the aim of the game here. And of course Ukraine, despite the scale of the challenge, has also brought with it an entirely new coalition of effort to support demining Ukraine, which is something we’ve not seen before in other contexts because of the level of attention and focus on the conflict there. So we’re seeing more technology partners, more philanthropists, more businesses, all sorts of people who who never were involved in mine action finding themselves saying, how can we help?

James And what that’s doing is leading to a sort of technological revolution around mine action in Ukraine in terms of the three biggest components of what mine action is. The first is to work out roughly where these weapons are to to turn really big areas into as small as possible.

James So you can then free off the rest and say, these are places where people can go and work and live without fear of these weapons. And then in the areas where you suspect contamination and you do your actual detection work, the ability to do detection far quicker and and and less costly. We we use dual-use scanners, we use ground-penetrating radar, we look at all ways in which we detect ah can detect weapons that often are, as I say, there’s lots of different types of landmines, some are have low metal or no metal at all in them, and therefore we need to have all the assets that we have in our toolbox to to find where these are, and not find ourselves digging holes to to come across detritus metal, et cetera. So the the detection part is the second component that, again, new technology is allowing us to do

James things in a very different way and that will continue to change. One of the things we’re looking at the moment is detectors that allow us to come across explosives in the ground as opposed to metal, which obviously again will reduce the false positive rate from the work we do there. And then the third process is actually removing the weapon once you’ve secured it. And this this can be the most dangerous as you can imagine, having a D-miner on their hands and knees digging around a weapon that may have moved in the ground over time that is where we have the most the highest numbers of of casualties and that is the highest point of risk within the operations. And increasingly we’re finding ourselves being able to do that through mechanical assets, particularly the use of of of small diggers and et cetera, things like that, as well as rollers that can make sure once this has all been done, you can give farmers the confidence that this is now cleared and safe land that they can go back to without having to keep half an eye on on things going off at any pun point. So I think Ukraine is a huge challenge but also is a place of this huge concern and coalition of efforts that we are part of and that’s what kind of slightly excites me to the ability to to get Ukraine to mind-free status pretty quickly a lot quicker than you’d think once the conflict finishes.

Dominic Bowen I remember one of the colleagues i was working most closely with in in January and February 2022. So just before Russia’s second invasion, she was actually working on demining projects from the 2014 war. And we were in places like Abdevke. It was just horribly, horribly landmined.

Dominic Bowen But can you tell us, you you mentioned all the technology, you mentioned the move from, you know, sometimes using humans to using electronic diggers, which is just fantastic. I think we’ve all seen the photos of those just incredibly brave people that work for for Halo Trust and other organisations that are going even on their hands and knees and doing the demining. So great to hear that there’s that possibility that more of that can be done mechanically now.

Dominic Bowen How confident? What’s the confidence rates once you put your thumbs up and say, yes, this field is clear? How confident are that, yes, it is 100% clear? and And how long does it even take?

James Well, mean how long it takes depending depends hugely on the nature of the minefield, the the geography it’s in. And I’m thinking here the difference between clearing on on the steep hills of Colombia versus the the jungles of Cambodia or the ah kind of the the savannah of Zimbabwe or peri-urban areas in Ukraine. So we are ah the the victims of the geography that we operate in first and foremost. Then of course it’s the nature of the weapons used. In a place like Zimbabwe we’ve got very established, mapped minefields where we more or less can predict where mines are because We have maps from the forces that laid them many years and years ago, whereas in other places you have nuisance minefields or again in Ukraine, we’re finding sort of more use of booby traps or mines placed near entrances to churches or something like that, where it’s a lot more nefarious and therefore difficult to predict where the weapons will be. there’s the standards by which i mean There’s three main types of mine clearance. There’s military mine clearance, there’s commercial mine clearance, and then there’s humanitarian mine action, which is what Halo Trust and other organisations do. We operate to very, very high standards, IMAS standards, that ensure that that level of the clearance and certainty of of clearance is done to the point of being able to properly hand over to a community to feel, to be genuinely safe,

James at levels of return there, because what you don’t want to happen, which you have heard of cases in the past, is non-accreditated operators doing fun of their own homemade clearance and saying something’s all signed off and fine, fine and then you know people go back and and then an incident happens, and I’ve unfortunately seen that myself.

Dominic Bowen Thank you.

James in in areas in Ukraine. and So you the standards are there to deliver a level of safety and a level of certainty that allows people the confidence to return to their land. and And using things like rollers is not just about using them as ah as a way of actually doing clearance, but actually a way of providing reassurance. And and there’s a key part of mine clearance, which is not just the detection of the weapon, the removal of it safely from the ground, but also how that land is then handed back to communities who own it and and and will live in it and run it that’s a key part of it we don’t just sort of disappear and say thank you very much it’s that that handover point is is a key part and and again it’s why things do take a long time and it’s why when i mention lots lots of the places that that halo works in people aren’t even don’t even remember the conflicts that that cause that problem but of course that is again the long nature of this weapon

Dominic Bowen Yeah, thanks for explaining that. And you you mentioned things like mining the paths towards churches, which which some of our listeners are probably scratching their heads about right now. But, you know, and we also saw in in villages that were reclaimed after Russia’s invasion, and particularly around cities like Kiev and Kharkiv, you know, people going into their homes and finding washing machines, booby-trapped and other household appliances.

Dominic Bowen So when you compare places like Myanmar and Iran’s border regions and Syria and Ukraine, Do you see a difference in how landmines and booby traps and explosives are used, you know, either as battlefield denial and border control and, you know, just pure terror against civilians?

James Yeah, I think it’s a really good question. And ultimately, you know if you could tell a history of conflict through 20 minefields, you would get the reason why a particular weapon is being used in a particular way is a characteristic of that type of conflict. Whether you have a conventional state-to-state conflict where people are using AP mines, but also mapping where they’re using them and are very clear as to what they’re using them for. versus non-state actors using IEDs in a completely indiscriminate manner with high levels of unpredictability, which is something like our colleagues in Afghanistan see on ah on a far more regular basis. Those are incredibly different challenges for us as a clearance operator, but are all kind of symptoms of that the histories of those particular conflicts. So no single minefield is the same, I would say, in my experience of things. And you need to be in the I guess the advantage of an organization the Halo Trust, which is one is the biggest single clearance operator and it’s worked for almost 40 years in in so many different geographies is the ability to adjust how we do our programs in each of those geographies to be able to do our job again, the quickest, the the safest and and the most cost efficient, because ultimately we all want to be out of a job. We don’t want to have to be doing these with this work. We want to be leaving Ukraine mind free, we want to be leaving Cambodia mind free. And until recently, we felt we were on an arc towards a mind free world. I think what the Ukraine conflict’s done, what continued issues in Myanmar has done in particular, has has reminded us that this weapon is is still being used, there’s still new use of the weapon. Thankfully that hasn’t kind of been a contagion that has spread elsewhere, but a lot of the skill set and the techniques around mind clearance are also working around the issues of unexploded ordnance. If you look at some of the failure rates of modern weapons like 155mm artillery shells, looking at

James 10 to 40% failure rate depending on how old the weapon is that gives us a huge amount of work in conflicts where mines aren’t even being used albeit with the different challenge weapons that aren’t designed to be hidden and and go off by victim activation so the the world of UXOs unfortunately is a world that will will go on for a lot longer and even the last few weeks of conflict in the Middle East will have a legacy that lasts a lot longer than those few weeks.

Dominic Bowen Yeah, I think your point about, you know, we were heading towards a country that was mind free and perhaps that we’re moving in the opposite direction now is really interesting. I’ll just take a a moment to remind our listeners, James, that if you prefer to watch your podcast, you can always find the International Risk Podcast on YouTube. So please do go to YouTube and remember to subscribe, like, and if you enjoyed it, even share it with a friend. It really is important so that our podcast and our message get shared even more widely.

Dominic Bowen But James, you mentioned the move away from a ah global world or a world that’s free of landmines. We know that there’s five countries, Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland, that have all begun legally withdrawing from the mine ban treaty. And the one thing that all those countries have in common is that they share a land border with Russia.

Dominic Bowen Now, in an era of increased risk to country sovereignties, especially countries like Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, that are quite fearful and genuinely fearful, you know having visited and worked in those countries regularly, i see that there is a very genuine concern from these countries about fear of invasion from Russia. And they feel that the use of mines is a legitimate way to slow down or stop an invasion from another country.

Dominic Bowen How do we convince leaders, how do we convince policymakers that landmines isn’t the right form of defense?

James Yes, well, I mean, the international order and many of its sort of rules based systems are under huge amounts of threat at this time. And it doesn’t just involve landmines, unfortunately, it also involves plastic munitions, also involves nuclear weapons, let alone the the way in which modern conflict is is waged.

James And of course, as soon as you see states withdrawing from a convention, you have legitimate questions as to what what that means for the convention itself and and what does that reflect on in terms of its aim in this particular instance around AP mines.

James I would say I’m slightly more optimistic and I’ll try and explain why. Obviously, no one wants to see withdrawals from ah a treaty that’s been as successful as Ottawa Treaty. But there’s one thing to withdraw from the treaty and another thing to find yourself using these weapons or using these weapons indiscriminately, using these weapons at ah at a mass level.

James So I think that we should instantly put all those who are not signatories the ot to the Ottawa Treaty in the same basket. And of course, as you explained, the reason why these states are leaving is very much linked to a non-signatory of this treaty invading a signatory of the treaty. And the second thing is, I think there is an understanding in states, especially in in states that are closer to the Ukraine conflict, that there’s obviously an an argument, there’s always an argument for military utility for any weapon, but there is a kind trade off to the the cost of of that weapon over a longer period of time in terms of the clearance to be able to allow that area to be safe, people to live back live there, work there, farm there, e etc.

James So I do think that that is something that people understand and that it is, as I say, many of these states, yes, they are withdrawing, but there’s some of them have been quite explicit saying they don’t intend to produce or use the weapon. The other thing to say, which is kind of perhaps the the the sort of uncertain point around it is I think we can safely say in the conflict of Ukraine that the the modern use of drones that has changed exponentially over the last few years has changed the kind of balance again of what weapon system is best for a defensive purposes. Military specialists will tell you that a but ah for minefield to be effective, you have to it has to be an observed minefield, it has to have sort of people looking at it to to cover it with with weapons. Whereas, obviously, FPV drones, which are proving the most kind of lethal defensive weapon in the Ukrainian arm armory at present, i give you an incredible level of of accuracy and control over a weapon into and its and its actual final endpoint, if you will. So I do believe that kind of the cost value of using mines you eventually have to clear versus using FPV drones that have ah ah don’t have that same long tail effect may ah lead some of these states to a different calculus when it comes to using the weapon because of course the fact that we are seeing clearance that happens decades after at at huge cost and and harm is is surely pause for thought when it comes to the decisions that these states make.

Dominic Bowen No, thanks for explaining that, James. And I know at the Halo Trust, the humanitarian impact is unquestionably at the front and the centre of all your work. But there are other impacts of landmines on communities, things like political, economic, environmental.

Dominic Bowen Can you help our listeners understand some of the other impacts of landmines over and above the immediate impact that I think we all understand?

James Yes, well i think again we sort of see landmines as a problem that exists at the sort of sharp end of conflict, the emergency side of of people’s life and limb, but of course it goes much much further than that when it comes to an ability to recover from conflict and in a way it’s almost described landmines as a weapon against recovery. One of the most famous images of the Halo Trust was of Princess Diana walking in ah in a minefield in a rural parts of Angola many years ago. And that and it’s a good example of that former minefield is now a bustling, thriving urban centre, which of course would never have happened if it hadn’t been for the ability to clear these weapons. So i do think that we have to understand that that having large scale UXO contamination landmine contamination leads to, yes, casualties, particularly of children, but ultimately, once people more or less know what these weapons are what people simply do is avoid those errors, which means large parts of the country can be off limits to people and and and the impacts that has on on its economy, on its ability to grow, on the ability of refugees to return. is all ah all has a knock-on effect. So so I think that humanitarian mind action lives at a humanitarian emergency response and it also lives all the way through into a development response and increasingly we’re finding that our work is not something that should be done in isolation but far more connected to other parts of the humanitarian response, connected to a ah water and sanitation drive, connected to those trying to reopen schools, connected to those trying to ensure that there is food security through having fields that can be re-harvested, etc. So I do think that in in the kind of world we’re in, which is a world of huge crises and less resource, there is a drive for us to be far more integrated across humanitarian development responses.

James far less isolated if you will and that is something that we are committed to at the Halo Trust along with that other component which I mentioned when it comes to Ukraine which is the sort of great opportunities of technology to really fundamentally affect the speed and the efficiency and the cost of our work so those two things combine new ways of partnerships new ways of working those are the positive stories against the backdrop of new weapon use record levels of conflict and of course the the terrible toll of suffering that has seen some almost 6,000 people killed and and injured by these weapons in the last 12 months. But then if you look back to 1999, that figure was around 25,000. So you can see the progress and the ability to reduce harm from the weapon, not just through clearance, but also through education risk awareness, telling making sure people are more aware of it. If you go to schools in

James In Angola, you’ll see you know kids being taught about avoiding picking up butterfly mines that they may kind of cause their lose lose their hands, etc. And unfortunately, that’s a horrible thing to to think of your kids having to be taught at schools in in safe Western countries. But unfortunately, that that is the reality of living with these weapons in large parts of the world.

Dominic Bowen And since 1988, the Halo Trust has removed more than 14 million mines and explosives across, ah I think it’s more than 30 countries, which is really impressive. And you’ve talked about some of the technological advances that that are ah coming, and I think that’s really, really exciting.

Dominic Bowen But what are the biggest challenges that that you and your colleagues face today?

James I think the biggest challenge is an obvious one, is that it yeah we for us to have 9,000 or so D-miners working across 30 countries, we need to be able to to fund ah recruiting these D-miners and having them have the right safety equipment, having the right sensors, having the right detectors, etc. And the biggest funders historically of mine action are of course states and states that are part or supportive of the Ottawa Treaty in particular. And a lot of states are reducing their ODA budgets, their humanitarian budgets, and we are seeing therefore mine action budgets shrinking

James from those traditional donors. So we look at the UK, we look at the Germans, we look at the French, we’re making the decision for very understandable reasons to move to to more defence spending, to move from sort of soft power to hard power, that we’re seeing therefore the support to MindAction reduce, which is, that there’s a slight paradox here, because a lot of the work that MindAction does is far more sort of hard power adjacent and far closer to the sort of human security part of the world than than the people would think.

James And the fact that our biggest program is in Ukraine, the place where the people are having to make that pivot for that reason. Imagine if there was you know a prospect of a future war in Europe where large scale landmines are used across Europe.

James Well, then you need to have the the very best of of mine action capabilities to be able to deal with it. Otherwise, we’ll simply see what we’re seeing in in large parts of Ukraine move elsewhere. And so I think that the sort of move from o of funding so reducing ODA funding to defense spending is is often very uh output orientated as opposed to outcome orientated and i think it it comes it comes upon us as the as the humanitarian money sector to really explain that this is a a a sort of a function that has a benefit far beyond the traditional humanitarian space uh to a know a human security space that states can understand beyond their order budgets but that certainly is the biggest challenge for for mine action today is that balance of support from states to fund clearance that gets us to a mine-free world as well as the incoming increased use in certain parts of the world of the weapon and conflict more generally.

Dominic Bowen And thanks for explaining that, James. And one question that we ask all guests on the International Risk Podcast is when you look around the world, James, what are the international risks that concern you the most?

James and Well I think When we look at how and people talk about the international rule-based order being frayed and being strained, i think the challenge I would really want to stress to your listeners is that while AP mines do have this kind of unique and insidious threat, the use of any weapon will have a failure rate that causes problems. So whenever there’s a conflict that lasts for a day, there will be weeks worth of clearance that happens after that, whether it’s from hand grenades left around, bullets that haven’t been exploded, let alone the heavier devices, airdropped or artillery, etc. So i think we just need to stop seeing conflict as a, increasingly I think we need to stop seeing conflict as a binary, one of war and peace, because there’s no genuine peace if the communities that live in the former war zone have to live surrounded by the weapons of war that cause such huge risks for their

James lives and limbs and those of their children’s and those of their livelihoods etc so I think the message I have is that I think we need to go beyond the traditional sense of where the world is at war and where the world is at peace and understand that it’s a bit more of a spectrum and within that spectrum there is huge suffering and unless we can address those weapons that are that are so pernicious to those people so I think that would be my sort singular message of of change

Dominic Bowen Fair enough. Thanks for that, James. And thank you very much for coming on the International Risk Podcast today.

James Thank you Dominic

Dominic Bowen That was a great conversation with James Dennis Lowe. I really appreciated hearing his thoughts on landmines, their lasting impact on communities, and the great work of the Halo Trust. Today’s podcast was produced and coordinated by Keir Fairley. I’m Dominic Bowen, your host. Thanks so much for listening. We will speak again soon.