Episode 367: From Rodents to Cruise Ships: Hantavirus and the Risks of a Hyperconnected World with Dr Giulia Gallo
In this episode, we host Dr Giulia Gallo to explore hantavirus, the recent MV Hondius cruise ship outbreak, and why a rare but serious infectious disease can generate global headlines without necessarily becoming a pandemic-style threat. Drawing on her work in molecular virology, viral-host interactions and viral glycoproteins at The Pirbright Institute, Dr Gallo explains what hantaviruses are, why they are not new, how they are carried by rodents, and why different hantaviruses cause different disease patterns in different parts of the world.
We discuss the difference between Old World and New World hantaviruses, why Andes virus is unusual because of its capacity for limited human-to-human transmission, and what public-health officials mean when they describe that transmission as “limited”. Dr Gallo explains why hantavirus can be extremely severe for an infected individual while still presenting a low risk to the wider population, and why the difference between individual severity and population-level transmissibility is so important for public understanding.
The conversation also examines the MV Hondius outbreak, including the possible land-based exposure in Argentina, the role of the cruise ship as a confined environment, and why enclosed spaces, close contact, limited airflow and international travel can make outbreak response more complex. Dr Gallo also takes us into the science of viral glycoproteins: the proteins on the outside of viral particles that help viruses enter host cells. She explains why viral entry matters, how it shapes infection, and why studying these mechanisms helps scientists understand how viruses move between animals and humans.
Dr Giulia Gallo is a postdoctoral scientist in the Viral Glycoproteins Group at The Pirbright Institute. Her research sits at the intersection of molecular virology, viral-host interactions, viral entry, innate immunity and zoonotic spillover. Her published work includes research on orthohantaviruses, viral glycoproteins and the mechanisms that shape how viruses interact with human and animal hosts. Her expert commentary has featured on Sky News, BBC World News and Channel 4 News, as well as in national and international media outlets including the Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, MSN and Associated Press.
The International Risk Podcast brings you conversations with global experts, frontline practitioners, and senior decision-makers who are shaping how we understand and respond to international risk. From geopolitical instability and organised crime to cybersecurity threats and hybrid warfare, each episode explores the forces transforming our world and what smart leaders must do to navigate them. Whether you’re a board member, policymaker, or risk professional, The International Risk Podcast delivers actionable insights, sharp analysis, and real-world stories that matter.
Dominic Bowen is the host of The International Risk Podcast and Europe’s leading expert on international risk and crisis management. As Head of Strategic Advisory and Partner at one of Europe’s leading risk management consulting firms, Dominic advises CEOs, boards, and senior executives across the continent on how to prepare for uncertainty and act with intent. He has spent decades working in war zones, advising multinational companies, and supporting Europe’s business leaders. Dominic is the go-to business advisor for leaders navigating risk, crisis, and strategy; trusted for his clarity, calmness under pressure, and ability to turn volatility into competitive advantage. Dominic equips today’s business leaders with the insight and confidence to lead through disruption and deliver sustained strategic advantage.
Subscribe for all our updates!
Transcript
[00:00:01] Dr Giulia Gallo: And so, in a person that’s infected, it’s very, very severe. But because the person is very, very unwell, it’s quite easy to isolate the person, control the person and help the person survive. That’s why we consider hantaviruses very severe for the person who is affected, but then the risk for the rest of the population is low.
[00:00:20] Podcast intro: Welcome back to The International Risk Podcast, where we discuss the latest world news and significant events that impact businesses and organisations worldwide.
[00:00:29] Dominic Bowen: And this episode is brought to you by Conducttr. Conducttr software helps you design and deliver crisis exercises without needing a big team or weeks of preparation. You can create a central exercise library with Conducttr Worlds, and you can generate reports that support your governance and compliance requirements. So, if you want flexible, realistic crisis exercises that are easy to adopt, then Conducttr is worth a look. And I have a quick favour to ask before we start today.
[00:00:55] Dominic Bowen: If you’re a regular listener, please subscribe and follow The International Risk Podcast. It’s the simplest way to support the show and it helps us reach listeners who need this content. And my commitment to you is that we’ll keep improving every part of the experience, from our guests, the quality of the research, and the practical insights we provide. And if there’s a guest you think we should bring on the podcast, or a risk that you want unpacked, send it through to us, and I promise we read all of your comments. Please hit the subscribe or follow button now and let’s jump into today’s episode.
[00:01:26] Dominic Bowen: The recent MV Hondius cruise ship outbreak has shown how quickly a little-known rodent-borne virus can move into the global headlines, triggering quarantine, repatriation of citizens, contact tracing and public concerns in many quarters of the world. Hantavirus, like many other viruses, is serious, but it’s also misunderstood. I’m Dominic Bowen and I’m host of The International Risk Podcast, and today we’re joined by Dr Giulia Gallo. She’s a postdoctoral scientist at the Viral Glycoproteins Group at The Pirbright Institute. Giulia’s work sits at that intersection of molecular virology, viral-host interactions and even the way that viruses enter cells, the way they evade immune responses, and sometimes even cross species barriers.
[00:02:11] Dominic Bowen: Dr Gallo is especially well placed to help us all understand what hantavirus is, to understand virus transmission, zoonotic spillover and how public health agencies can respond. And I think today is going to be a really insightful conversation. Dr Giulia Gallo, welcome to The International Risk Podcast.
[00:02:28] Dr Giulia Gallo: Thank you for having me. I’m looking forward to this conversation.
[00:02:31] Dominic Bowen: Yeah, I think it’ll be a lot of fun. Now, whereabouts in the world are you today?
[00:02:35] Dr Giulia Gallo: So, today I’m at my workplace. The Pirbright Institute is in the county of Surrey, in south-west England, one hour from London.
[00:02:44] Dominic Bowen: Very nice. I’m a big fan of Surrey. I’ve had some fantastic work experiences down there and it’s a beautiful part of the world.
[00:02:51] Dr Giulia Gallo: Yeah, it is. It’s very countryside, it’s very friendly, it’s very nice.
[00:02:55] Dominic Bowen: Well, Giulia, if we look a little bit further afield, there was this Dutch-flagged cruise ship which had passengers and crew from 23 different countries, including nine European Union countries. And the virus has since been identified as the Andes hantavirus. And as of the 18th of May, there’s been a total of 12 cases reported, I believe, including nine confirmed, two probable, one inconclusive, and sadly there’s been three deaths. Now, this is a serious risk, but it’s not a pandemic-style threat. Now, for our listeners that have only just heard of hantavirus, what exactly is it and, perhaps more accurately, what do we need to know about this virus and this group of viruses?
[00:03:35] Dr Giulia Gallo: So, I’ve been in interviews where, or I read comments where people were worried that hantaviruses are new viruses, and that’s not the case. Hantaviruses have been discovered, first reported at least, we think, during the Korean War. And the name Hantan actually comes from the River Hantan that you can find in Korea. So at some point, American soldiers reported symptomatology that’s quite similar to what’s reported for Old World hantaviruses. And I can talk about the distinction between Old World and New World hantaviruses later.
[00:04:06] Dr Giulia Gallo: But then the final proof came in the late 70s, when people isolated the virus Hantaan for the first time. So it’s been around for this; we are aware of it for like 50, 70 years. And when we talk about New World hantaviruses, and Andes is one of them, so it’s all these viruses that are found in the Americas. The first cases of New World hantaviruses in people have been reported since the 90s. So there is nothing new about these viruses.
[00:04:38] Dr Giulia Gallo: What is new is that, as everyone knows, we are in a much more globalised, interconnected world than we were 30, 40 years ago. And so if now something happens, all of a sudden we are more involved, we are more affected by it. Beside that, hantaviruses are quite simple genome-wise, quite a small genome, which is made of RNA, which is nucleic acid, and they are quite simple. They encode for four proteins, which is not many proteins for a virus. And what we know is that they are hosted by rodents and different species of rodents.
[00:05:15] Dr Giulia Gallo: So, as you might know, rodents are the biggest group in mammals and the most diverse. So it’s not just house mouse or brown rat, it’s a lot of different species that to us, they all look the same. But to a mammalogist, I’m sure they could tell the difference. So different animals, different rodents, can be infected by different types of hantaviruses and occasionally this virus can be transmitted to humans. And that’s what we’re seeing now.
[00:05:41] Dominic Bowen: And you talked about Old World and New World viruses. That can sound quite interesting and certainly intriguing. Can you talk to us about the difference between Old World and New World viruses?
[00:05:52] Dr Giulia Gallo: Yeah, absolutely. So when we talk about New World hantaviruses or New World viruses, we refer to viruses that we find in the Americas, while Old World we refer to viruses that we find in Europe, Asia and Africa. And in the case of hantaviruses, it has been shown the New World hantaviruses cause something called hantavirus cardiopulmonary syndrome, which is what unfortunately the people on the cruise have been affected by. While in the Old World, the hantaviruses cause something called haemorrhagic fever with renal syndrome. And that also shows us, just in the name, that these viruses, the disease they cause, affects different parts of the human body.
[00:06:30] Dr Giulia Gallo: So in the New World, we will see a symptomatology that mainly affects the lungs and, to a lesser extent, the heart. While in the Old World, the main target of the infection we find is the kidneys. The onset of the disease is quite similar. It’s this prodromal syndrome, which is a febrile syndrome. So it’s very specific flu-like; we refer sometimes as flu-like symptoms. When the disease gets more severe, we can distinguish the two, along with, of course, tests that will confirm if the person is infected by hantavirus and which species.
[00:07:07] Dominic Bowen: Okay, now that’s really interesting to understand. And we’ve also heard more specifically that this virus has been the Andes virus. So I’d love to hear from you about why this family within the hantavirus is different.
[00:07:21] Dr Giulia Gallo: Yeah, so in hantaviruses we find different species of viruses and Andes is one of the species. And the reason why it’s a bit different from the others is that for all the other viruses, as we know now, we have no cases of human-to-human transmission. That means that if a person gets in contact with a rodent that is infected with the virus, it might get the virus, but then it might or might not have a symptomatology and then the virus will kind of die. The person survives. In the case of Andes, this is a bit different because, being a human-to-human transmission, it means that if a person is sick and then gets into close contact with someone else, the second person can get infected by the virus.
[00:08:05] Dr Giulia Gallo: And that’s why it’s, in a way, much scarier than any other hantavirus, because we need to be more careful about how we handle patients and how we put up certain types of security measures to prevent the exposure of other people.
[00:08:22] Dominic Bowen: Yeah, and I think that’s a really important point because we’ve heard public health officials right around the world, from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to the World Health Organization, talk about limited human-to-human transmission. I think this is something that people need to understand because the implication is that transmission only occurs under specific conditions or in clusters, or that that reproduction threshold is quite low. And I understand that can be because of the low viral shedding or the transmission period or when people are most contagious. But can you help us understand with this virus, what are our public health experts actually saying when they say limited human-to-human transmission?
[00:08:58] Dr Giulia Gallo: I would say the limitation we have at the moment is that we know it causes, there are around 100, 200 reported cases per year in South America, mainly Argentina and Chile. But because the cruise event seems to confirm it can be transmitted from human to human, of course it’s much harder for us as scientists to study this virus because we don’t want to expose researchers to the virus. So it has to be in high containment facilities, which are very, very expensive to run and very, very limited in number all over the world because of regulations. And so unfortunately, when we say limited or close contact, it’s because we ourselves are not sure.
[00:09:39] Dr Giulia Gallo: We don’t have enough data. We have circumstantial data from when we go back retrospectively and we study outbreaks, as happened in Argentina in 2018–19. But it’s not very easy for scientists to go in the lab, grow the virus and do all this kind of experiment that we can do with viruses that are less pathogenic, in the sense that the disease is not as severe as, for example, we can do with some types of flu. We can do with RSV, which of course affects the human population, but not to the degree that we see haemorrhagic fever, which is something that of course really scares us, and we really have to be sure to protect the scientists involved. So unfortunately it just means that we know what’s happening, we have ideas and we have data, but we don’t have enough data to be sure, to conclusively say we are sure this is happening, we understand exactly what’s going on here.
[00:10:30] Dr Giulia Gallo: As scientists, we are also learning from what’s happening on the cruise and it’s very clear, based on other outbreaks, how we should treat the patients. So we know we have to give them respiratory support, exchange of oxygen, but unfortunately above it. So, the molecular biology of the virus or the transmission of the virus is very hard to study in the lab for us. So yeah, it’s circumstantial evidence we have so far.
[00:10:56] Dominic Bowen: That’s really interesting because I think the scientific certainty and certainty from a public health point of view is one thing, but also the public understanding of an outbreak is really important because I think many people in the public and even journalists covering this story have perhaps confused points because whilst hantavirus can be very severe at a personal level, it’s got a low likelihood of spreading widely. So I wonder if you can talk us through that difference between individual severity and the wider population-level risk.
[00:11:25] Dr Giulia Gallo: Yeah, absolutely. So you have to imagine, this is a very over-simplistic way, but you have to imagine if you were a virus. So you infect someone and the ultimate goal of the virus is to replicate as much as it can. And the perfect host, therefore, is not the host that dies. The perfect host is the host that is infected in a persistent way, so it can shed the virus over a long period of time. And that’s what we see with rodents.
[00:11:53] Dr Giulia Gallo: And hantaviruses are well adapted to rodents. So we believe that once an animal is infected, the virus will persist throughout its lifetime. And there are conflicting reports, but we believe the rodent will keep shedding the virus and the virus will keep replicating without causing any disease in the animal. On the other hand, when a human gets into contact with the hantavirus, they are not very adapted to each other. And so what might happen is that there is a very, very severe response from the human body to the infection.
[00:12:24] Dr Giulia Gallo: And we now believe that might be the reason why we see haemorrhagic fever. It’s just overreaction, in a way, of the body to the infection. And so in a person that’s infected, it’s very, very severe. But, on the other hand, because the person is very, very unwell, it’s quite easy to isolate the person, control the person and help the person survive. Well, for hantaviruses, as today, UKHSA released a report where we don’t have any documented cases of asymptomatic person infected with hantavirus.
[00:12:58] Dr Giulia Gallo: While for other viruses, you can think of the case of coronaviruses, for example, flu or RSV. There are cases, of course, people get sick, but there are also cases where the person is slightly unwell, they are not bedridden, they can go around and talk to other people and shed the virus, and then the chances of people being more exposed are much, much higher. So it’s a complicated question. That’s how we think it works, that in a way, viruses, they are not so pathogenic to human, they can be to what we call the more sensible part of the population. So people that have a lower immune response, elderly people, of course they’re going to be affected.
[00:13:35] Dr Giulia Gallo: But a healthy individual that’s quite young as well might not be as affected, but still would propagate the virus. So that’s why we consider hantaviruses very severe for the person who’s affected. But because it seems that the close contact is really required to be close to someone that’s very, very sick, and the person cannot go around in the population, we consider then the risk for the rest of the population is low.
[00:13:57] Dominic Bowen: That’s really good to understand. And Giulia, I’ll take the opportunity to remind our listeners that prefer to watch their podcasts, The International Risk Podcast is always available on YouTube. So please go to YouTube and search for The International Risk Podcast and please do subscribe to our content. And if you like it, please like it and maybe even share it with a friend. That really is critical for our long-term success and making sure other people find out about our content.
[00:14:20] Dominic Bowen: But Giulia, your own research has looked at how the hantavirus proteins interact with humans. Can you talk to us about, you know, what does the immune response and the human response tell us about why some hantaviruses can cause such severe disease in humans while remaining asymptomatic in other populations like rodents?
[00:14:40] Dr Giulia Gallo: Yeah, so this was the work of my PhD. What we were trying to understand during my PhD was why these viruses cause such a disease in humans and not much in rodents. And we found that depending on the virus and depending on the cell lines, so we have cells from humans, we have cells from rodents, and when we infect them with the hantavirus that’s specific to the rodent or other hantaviruses, we found their response was not the same. So in our heads, it seems that while in human cells, all these viruses could cause, with different proteins, a type of antiviral response. When we were looking in rodent cells, which of course is a model, it’s an over-simplified model, but that’s what we work with.
[00:15:25] Dr Giulia Gallo: We found that only the virus that has evolved with the specific rodent could be productive. And when I say productive, I mean that the virus can enter and replicate, while all the other hantaviruses that never met this rodent, they didn’t seem to succeed in producing new infectious variants. And so this was the main finding. And of course, there is still a lot to study. Just today, I was reading a paper from 2024 where people compare endothelial cells.
[00:15:53] Dr Giulia Gallo: When I say endothelial, those are cells that are part of the vascular system that we have. And we can get cell lines from humans and from rodents. And we know that hantavirus is infecting endothelial cells. And when we look at human endothelial cells, we find a strong immune response with hantaviruses. But when we take endothelial cells from rodents, in that specific case was a rat, and infect it with a hantavirus, we don’t see any immune response.
[00:16:18] Dr Giulia Gallo: So it seems to suggest that these viruses, where they are well adapted to the host, the host kind of tolerates them, nothing major happens. But in humans, there is a very strong antiviral response that we think might be the cause of the disease we observe.
[00:16:36] Dominic Bowen: And I think, Giulia, it’s probably important, this is probably a good time in the episode to really dive into the technical and dorky parts of science. But you work with viral glycoproteins and viral-host interactions. So I think it would be good for us to understand, starting with, what are viral glycoproteins and why do they matter so much? What’s the important thing that we need to understand about how viruses enter our cells, why they cause disease, and why they sometimes enable it to cross from rodents into humans?
[00:17:06] Dr Giulia Gallo: Yeah, so when we talk about viral glycoproteins, those are the proteins. Glyco means they are glycosylated. So they are proteins which are made of amino acids. And glycosylation are sugars that decorate our protein. And that’s just the explanation of the name.
[00:17:24] Dr Giulia Gallo: And they basically are the exterior part of a viral particle in the case of hantaviruses, coronavirus, flu, RSV. And we are very interested in those because they play a key role in the first part of the virus cycle. So basically, they are responsible for interacting with the host cell and allow what we call viral entry, meaning that the virus can effectively infect a cell. And so that’s why we are so interested in them, because we can see that if this viral entry step cannot happen, basically we will not have an infection. And nowadays a lot of therapeutics are now focused on this first part.
[00:18:03] Dr Giulia Gallo: So the vaccine for COVID, for example, it’s based on stopping viral entry by forcing the human body to produce antibody against the viral glycoprotein. And we found a lot of therapeutics, like antibody treatment, for example, in the case of RSV. That’s the same concept. We give to people monoclonal antibodies, targeting this specific aspect. That’s why we are so interested in that, and we think it’s important to understand what’s going on. The other reason why we are interested in that is because, being the first part of the virus cycle, we can study how similar cells between animals are.
[00:18:40] Dr Giulia Gallo: And so we can kind of try to predict if a virus like a coronavirus, a hantavirus, can potentially infect human cells based on the similarities we find between human cells and the host cells.
[00:18:53] Dominic Bowen: Thank you very much for explaining that. And for our listeners that, you know, we’re coming into the summer in Europe and North America, there’s going to be a lot of people either going on planes, staying in resorts, maybe getting on cruise ships. Can you talk to us about what do we know about the cruise ship outbreak, the possible origin exposure on land, the evidence around onboard transmission, and even the role of the ship as a confined environment?
[00:19:19] Dr Giulia Gallo: Yeah, so we know that a cruise ship is a very special place. I was attending the WHO meeting last Friday. We had an emergency meeting where experts on hantavirus just came together to discuss what we know. What are the target priorities that we need to find as soon as possible? And someone was exactly doing this comparison, saying what could happen on land and what could happen on a cruise ship.
[00:19:44] Dr Giulia Gallo: So as it is now, I think no rodent has been found on the cruise ship, which then kind of suggests that the leading theory at the moment is that there was a couple, unfortunately they both passed away, and they were doing some birdwatching in Argentina and in some more secluded area, like rural areas. And we know, unfortunately, that’s where the rodents are from, and they might have contracted the virus there and then, of course, got back into the ship. So we were comparing how different the transmission might be. Outdoor, when you meet a rodent with a virus, usually it needs to be close contact, inhalation of viral particle because maybe people are close to the excreta of viruses, but still we have UV from the sun, we have air, we have wind.
[00:20:46] Dr Giulia Gallo: While in a cruise ship, unfortunately, the space is quite secluded, so people are in close contact all the time. There is no UV, there is not as much change of air as we would outdoors. So we think that a cruise ship was a very peculiar situation where this all contributed to the cluster of outbreak that we saw. And I don’t know how you feel about cruise ships. I tried once to go whale watching in Iceland and I was sick all the time. So honestly, to me it doesn’t make much difference. Not a choice I would make anyway.
[00:21:08] Dr Giulia Gallo: But yeah, I think people might be worried now about going on cruise ships and I think it really depends on the locations where you’re going and how long you’re staying on the ship, or how in close contact you are with other people.
[00:21:21] Dominic Bowen: Yeah, thanks very much for explaining that. And despite years of messaging during COVID, some people still think that hand washing is optional. They think that sneezing and coughing into their hands is fine. They think coming into the office and the workspace when visibly ill is a reasonable course of action for ordinary people. What precautions actually matter, especially when it comes to travel and working in offices, and I guess respect for society?
[00:21:48] Dr Giulia Gallo: I think it’s a really good rule that if you are feeling unwell, you should not go to work independently of the virus, bacteria, infection, whatever is happening. You shouldn’t, for example, as a work. It’s true, we are scientists, so maybe we were very much affected by coronavirus, so we still have the good practice. If you do have to go to work and you feel a bit unwell, to wear a mask, we still do that here. We still have a lot of alcohol gel around the Institute.
[00:22:17] Dr Giulia Gallo: I think COVID, of course it was awful, but for a lot of people was a good lesson and I see a lot of people have kept their lesson in their mind. So I do see sometimes people going around with masks, washing their hands more than usual. And I’m not suggesting doing that for hantaviruses, of course, because the risk for the population is very low. But it’s just a good practice. No matter which virus we know, these measures for any respiratory virus and for any virus or bacteria, just washing your hands or using gel, it’s a very, very good solution. So I think that independently of the hantavirus outbreak, if you’re feeling unwell, you still have to go out because it can happen. If you think it’s respiratory, if your doctor says it’s respiratory, just after consultation, do wear a mask, wash your hands more.
[00:23:03] Dr Giulia Gallo: Try to avoid enclosed spaces, even if you have to miss, I don’t know, a concert you were looking forward to. It’s heartbreaking but it’s awful for propagation of virus. So it’s good measures that, you know, in a world where sometimes it feels like some type of policy and government are becoming more narcissistic than ever and self-centred, it’s quite good to remember. I think the big lesson we learned from the hantavirus and the COVID was collaboration is more important than an international collaboration is what can save us, and readiness, and being willing to share and being willing to get a bit less on self-interest so the whole world can benefit.
[00:23:42] Dominic Bowen: Yeah, that’s some great messages in there, Giulia. Thank you very much for bringing those out. And I wonder, Giulia, when guests come on The International Risk Podcast, one question that we ask all guests is: when you look around the world — and I know you travel quite a bit and you’ve got a fantastic international background yourself — what are the international risks that concern you the most?
[00:24:00] Dr Giulia Gallo: I think, I’m sure you have a bigger and better and more complex answer. What I’m going to say now is going to be a reduction because I think this is a very good question for politicians and economists, just a biologist. But I think nowadays what scares me the most, or I think it’s a big risk, is what I see like geopolitical fragmentation, or how much we rely. On one hand, we want to be separate, we want to be independent, we just want to be on our own. But on the other hand, we build systems that heavily rely on interconnection.
[00:24:42] Dr Giulia Gallo: And I think the bigger risk is that if this interconnection misses, and interconnection can be commerce, it can be internet. I’m trying to think if tomorrow the internet is down for a week. I think it’s going to be as bad as a lockdown because a lot of people would not be able to work. And I think sometimes I have the feeling that everything, it’s an old machine. Anything that can be unexpected, we are not prepared for that. And I think, at least from our perspective as scientists, I think we learned a lot from the pandemic and I think the response we had for this hantavirus outbreak was more rapid, it was more engaging with the community.
[00:25:12] Dr Giulia Gallo: It was also in a way easier because it was not something we did. As I said, we don’t have asymptomatic people for now. From my perspective, it was very good. A lot of people were involved, communication was great, collaboration was great. Everyone had the chance to say what they thought. But if you can tell me what you think is the biggest risk, I would be interested in knowing.
[00:25:34] Dominic Bowen: Well, no, thanks very much for asking, Giulia. It’s obviously something I ask a lot and I don’t agree with your comment that you’re just a biologist. You’re very well educated, you’re well travelled, you’re well connected. And I think that’s one of the reasons why I love asking that question to all of our guests, whether they’re just biologists or just journalists or just politicians, because the insights everyone gives. And it’s interesting that you talked about geopolitical fragmentation because I’m very concerned about the environment and climate change. I’m concerned that we don’t take advantage of the huge opportunities that technology and artificial intelligence presents us.
[00:26:08] Dominic Bowen: I’m very concerned about the K-shaped economy and, as my mother used to say many years ago, the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.
[00:26:16] Dr Giulia Gallo: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think economic disparity and imbalance of wealth distribution is very scary. Right. Because sometimes I wonder how much money is enough money. I don’t think having trillions of dollars is something that everybody needs. Right.
[00:26:32] Dr Giulia Gallo: But yeah, I think there is maybe a space for people to become more ethical, not ethical or moral. I think at community level, what I see in my town, it’s a very, very solid community. People are really willing to help each other. I think the farther you go from your day-to-day life, the more mistrust we see. And I think that’s a big problem as well, that people just don’t trust what they hear from the official sources. And hopefully that’s what scientists are there for. We’re really trying to engage with your podcast, with journalists as much as we can, to say what we think is happening and not treat people like they are ignorant or stupid, but treating them as, you know, this concerns you, so you should know what we know and we will go through it together.
[00:27:20] Dominic Bowen: I think your point is spot on, especially about communities. I’ve had the real blessing to work in every major conflict zone over the last couple of decades. And whether it’s in the jungles in Burma or the jungles in Liberia or across the Middle East and a variety of other locations, one thing that I consistently see, and maybe even more so when I come home, people like, “Oh, that must have been so difficult, being in Ukraine, on the front lines, or being in Somalia during the conflict, or being in Iraq or Yemen or Syria.” And one thing that I consistently feel when people say that to me is, no, because the human spirit and the community. And that’s what you said when you talked about the community.
[00:27:55] Dominic Bowen: Humans are amazing. We might not be that great with our communities in Stockholm or London or in Surrey, but when communities are affected by humanitarian disasters, by natural disasters, by conflict, I think the human spirit has this amazing way to come together. And the positive nature of society and communities I see shine through again and again when humans are pushed to the brink. So whilst I don’t want to be pushed to the brink, I certainly see when we are done that I think humans perform wonderfully.
[00:28:22] Dr Giulia Gallo: I think the one key aspect for us to progress, maybe as society, would be not needing this humanitarian crisis to remind ourselves that we should do that day to day. Right? That’s the switch we still need to do. And it’s very hard.
[00:28:37] Dr Giulia Gallo: It’s like when you are reminded that you should be grateful for three things every day. And it’s very true. But some days it’s just so hard to find something to be grateful for. And I think that’s a bit the same. Like we should find three things we are grateful for every year that something has happened in our community or in our country, and maybe that will help.
[00:28:58] Dominic Bowen: Definitely. Yeah. That’s certainly a habit I have every night over time. To be grateful for a few things, you just have to be. It doesn’t matter how grumpy I am when I sit down at the dinner table, coming up with a few things to be grateful for is a really good daily habit.
[00:29:11] Dr Giulia Gallo: Yeah.
[00:29:11] Dominic Bowen: But, Giulia, I really appreciate our conversation today and really appreciate you coming on The International Risk Podcast. Thank you very much.
[00:29:17] Dr Giulia Gallo: Thank you for having me.
[00:29:18] Dominic Bowen: Well, that was a really great conversation with Dr Giulia Gallo, and I really appreciated hearing her thoughts on hantavirus, on viral transmission, and how we should understand this rare but serious infectious disease without falling into either conspiracy, complacency or panic. Today’s episode was produced and coordinated by Edward Penrose. I’m Dominic Bowen, your host. Thanks very much for listening to The International Risk Podcast. We’ll speak again in the next couple of days.
[00:29:43] Podcast outro: Thank you for listening to this episode of The International Risk Podcast. For more episodes and articles, visit theinternationalriskpodcast.com. Follow us on LinkedIn, Bluesky and Instagram for the latest updates and to ask your questions to our host, Dominic Bowen. See you next time.
2 Comments