In today’s episode, we are joined by Nerida Williams. Nerida has over thirteen years of experience as a media and communications specialist in the humanitarian and development sectors, including with the United Nations and several INGOs.
Currently, Nerida works as the International Planned Parenthood Federation’s Senior Humanitarian Communications Advisor. IPPF is the world’s largest sexual and reproductive healthcare provider and advocate.
Produced by Lottie James
Transcript of interview with Nerida Williams
Dominic
Hi, I’m Dominic and I’m the host of The International Risk Podcast.
Today we’re going to delve deeper into the complexities of the situation in Ukraine. We’re going to focus on the risks associated with sexual violence and the dynamics of the conflict the challenges of providing support and protection to survivors and the broader implications of international law and human rights in conflict zones. We’re really blessed today to be joined by Nerida Williams. She’s the senior humanitarian communications advisor for the International Planned Parenthood Federation. Nerida brings a wealth of experience working amidst disasters around the globe and most recently she gained on-the-ground experience with Ukrainian refugees in Poland Hungary Romania and in Ukraine itself. In our conversation with Nerida today we hope to gain some insight into the gendered dynamics of the war in Ukraine and uncover some of the risks women in Ukraine continue to face today. Nerida, thank you very much for coming on the International Risk Podcast today.
Nerida
It’s a pleasure Dominic thanks for having me.
Dominic
The impacts of war as most of our listeners will understand are numerous already and certainly, the impacts on women and children are numerous. I think the issue that many of our listeners will think about straight away is sexual assault, particularly at the start of the war we were just bombarded with just these terrible terrible stories that were occurring and these atrocious events and during the initial occupation of Ukraine by Russian forces back in February 2022, there was just headline after headline of rape and sexual assault on Ukrainian women and children by Russian soldiers, and there were reports of a wide range of survivors from you know I think as young as 4 years. And I wonder, how do you understand the situation in Ukraine and the situation for women and children who have been living through the war in Ukraine for the last couple of years
Nerida
Well, we know in the sector that I work in which is in sexual and reproductive health and rights. We know that there are always increases in violence against women in any type of humanitarian context and that can include sexual violence. But also intimate partner and domestic violence as well. So with the type of services and care that my organization provides it’s geared towards this knowledge so we have to be ready to provide women survivors with clinical management of rape. But also the whole suite of medical services and psychological care that would be required for women in these situations who have survived such attacks and this can include access to emergency contraception and access to safe abortion care as well. In the context of Ukraine, we know that in most conflicts in the world, there is a rise in sexual violence. So, unfortunately, it did not come as a surprise that these reports were starting to come through after Russia’s full-scale invasion started almost eighteen months ago what was surprising was the type of violence that was taking place and the fact that it felt almost genocidal and that it had an element of preventing women from procreating further on in their lives. So it wasn’t just about the 1 act of sexual violence that we know happens. In this particular case we came across stories in my own organization and through our partner organization of almost a torturous element in place as well. So there was the sexual violence attack and then there were cases of torture coming out around that as well.
Dominic
As you said gender-based violence does increase during conflict and it’s almost guaranteed that in every conflict zone, we see gender-based violence increase. The First Lady of Ukraine Ilana Zelinsky warned that Russian forces were using sexual violence systematically and openly. There have been reports of Russian soldiers claiming to perpetrate these crimes with ah systematic intentions as a means of population control. In your view would you categorize the rapes and sexual violence that Ukrainian women are facing simply as a byproduct of war or actually as a weapon itself and what does that even mean for survivors in Ukraine? Does that impact their ability to survive and recover and carry on and the sort of programming that you and other organizations need to offer survivors?
Nerida
Yeah, well as you rightly say rape has been used as a weapon of war since wars have existed, and in this case, I think it feeds into the narrative that we’ve been hearing from the start not just of this full-scale invasion eighteen months ago but even going back to 2014 in Crimea is the dehumanizing of the Ukrainian people. So we know that there have been horrible words used such as cockroaches and other things like this and that is a tactic to dehumanize another population and therefore almost then enable the soldiers themselves to carry out these acts without feeling perhaps the remorse or guilt that they would have done otherwise because this is an extremely nationalistic war. I spoke to so many Ukrainians when I was there in April and the the sentiment that came out so strongly from everyone was just how fiercely proud they are to be Ukrainian and also how proud they are at the bravery that they’re currently showing and I think the whole world can see that and the whole world is backing Ukraine. Most of the world. But the pride in the soldiers that have gone to the front lines is immense and I feel like also that’s tied up in this narrative which is so layered. The tactic of war being rape ties into that as well because I think the whole point of sexual violence is to dehumanize another person and another population. And I heard reports when I was there that often that there was an uptick in sexual violence against Ukrainian women when Russian soldiers had felt like they had been defeated on the front lines so it was almost a way to bolster their you know their own bravado feel like they’re getting a win on another battlefield. I also hadn’t really fully conceptualized the genocidal aspect of this war until I was there and I spoke to dozens of medical professionals and dozens of women who had escaped Russian-occupied areas. And many many people within Ukraine and I started to hear the same things over and over again. That was really leaning toward Ukrainians themselves seeing this as genocidal. This is a genocidal war and I think 1 aspect of it is the sexual violence aspect
Dominic
Yeah, I think your comment about how fiercely Ukrainians how proud they are of their country and how proud they are of their bravery, I was very blessed to be able to spend some time. In Ukraine just before the invasion in January and February and in places like Maripol and Avdivka and places that are now sadly known by most people around the world. It was a very proud country very proud population. But there was such a massive difference on subsequent visits to Ukraine where now that patriotism and that proudness have just been emboldened by the conflict. But notwithstanding that, I mean when I meet with health professionals when I meet with Ukrainian government officials, particularly around the start of the invasion, and I’m asking them what has been going on? How is this occurring what? What are you seeing and you know what sort of an explanation can you put on it? No one can. No one’s been able to, and in words that you’ve been using like dehumanizing, I think is actually fed into that proudness and that determination that Ukrainians cannot accept failure because you know from what they’ve seen from the Russian soldiers, there’s no way that they could um accept being governed by that country. So what measures are you seeing? What’s what’s actually being done to provide support and protection to survivors? You know how are international and local organizations working together to address the needs of survivors affected by sexual violence?
Nerida Williams
Well, I can speak to the work that my organization is doing firstly and that is through our local partner in Ukraine which is called Women’s Health and Family Planning Ukraine and they have been operating in Ukraine for decades. When the war broke out last February it was pretty obvious and imperative that they needed to pivot their organization to be able to provide care to women that have escaped from Russian-occupied areas. As I said earlier we know that there’s going to be sexual and reproductive health needs of women, sexual violence related but also maternity related. Women need to give birth safely. They need to get pre and postnatal care women still need to get access to contraception of their choice. And also we need to have STI and HIV testing and diagnosis services available for these women as well. So our local organization set up gynecological rooms inside state maternity hospitals around Ukraine and inside these gynecological rooms, they were essentially one-stop shops for women. So rather than a woman who’s already been through hell (this is the word that was used to me many times having spoken to women who had managed to escape Russian-occupied areas and become internally displaced within their own country), once they were in need of this type of healthcare they didn’t have to go around to 4 or 5 different places to receive the one service when they came to us. They could receive the counseling, they could receive the diagnostics, they could receive the actual treatment, whatever was needed, and then also go into a recovery room. This also eased the situation for women who were already anxious already. I’ll give you an example of one woman that I met with in Poltava this was inside the Poltava regional hospital where we have established one of these rooms and when I entered the hospital she had just received a safe abortion through our clinicians. I was able to sit down and speak with her for some time and she shared her story with me and I think her story really illustrates an aspect of war that people would never really think about and that is that she is married. She has 2 children and shortly after the war broke out her elderly relatives who were inside occupied areas had to flee where they lived and come and live with her – that story in itself is extremely traumatic about the mother and father being in a convoy of vehicles. There was a window of opportunity to escape. The Russians had said that there would be a certain window of opportunity where they would let people leave safely and they were in a convoy of dozens of vehicles vans buses and cars. And I think they were they were right at the front and they got through and shortly after all of the vehicles behind them were shot up and shot at and everyone was massacred behind them. So her her relatives arrived and were extremely traumatized so she’s taking in these relatives. At the same time, her husband who had a good job prior to the war, his role was demoted in order for the company to save money. So then there’s extra burden and stress on the family finances and she fell pregnant. She and her husband sat down and had to have a very hard discussion about what they were going to do with this pregnancy. You can imagine being in a war-torn country with an uncertain future. With less money with 2 children existing and now you’ve got an elderly family living with you and she said eventually they had to make the really really difficult choice not to continue with this pregnancy. And it’s just heartbreaking to hear these personal anecdotes from women whose lives have been impacted in such a personal, intimate way because of a war that they have no control over and they didn’t ask for. So she found out about our services available at the regional hospital. Her husband drove her in and she was able to receive the safe abortion care that she needed all within the space of an afternoon and was able to then go home after that. So that is just 1 example of the impact of war on women but also the kind of services that we can provide in order to assist them.
Dominic
Thanks for explaining that for anyone listening to this podcast as they’re now heading into work or going for a stroll or at the gym this morning, the city that you mentioned is a city in central Ukraine. You know I know in a lot of conflicts. We think about war-torn countries or countries that have been at war for decades. I mean Poltava is a beautiful city with parks and restaurants and supermarkets and playgrounds and schools. It’s a city you would go to on a holiday or for a weekend with your family. We’ve seen lots of photos of Mariupol and other cities that have been destroyed by the conflict and Poltava is certainly close to the front line and is affected by the conflict. But these are families that are affected and are living what we would outwardly see as normal lives but inwardly with just such massive trauma and difficult issues to deal with. So thanks very much for sharing that story I appreciate that. And you’ve spoken about the risks and the consequences of rape and sexual assault by Russian soldiers and this is an important issue that everyone has to be aware of, but as you said before it’s not the only risk that women in Ukraine are currently facing. And that correlation between the increase in domestic violence and the decline of women’s ability to seek medical care and reproductive healthcare becomes even more difficult – can you perhaps describe for our listeners that correlation between war increasing nd at the same time there being an increase in domestic violence and then just to make it worse quite often a decreasing ability for women to be able to seek medical care at the same time. What brings those 3 things together?
Nerida
Yeah, that’s exactly right. And that’s such an important point to stress is that during war the levels of stress that people are under on a day-to-day basis increases and also the amount of time that they are inside their houses increases. So another example I can sort of relate this to is the pandemic – we had lockdowns. We had people inside their homes and an elevated level of stress in in the community and we saw a massive increase in domestic violence during the pandemic. So the war in Ukraine is not dissimilar in that it has the same kind of compounding effects on the family unit and the same sort of result which is an increase in domestic violence and so that was the case with Ukraine. At the same time, women are not able to move around as much as they would have before and aren’t able to escape or get access to the care that they need. But on the flip side, another interesting thing that I witnessed when I was in Ukraine was the fact that this war, first of all, has created a refugee crisis, as we know refugees have gone into the neighboring countries in Europe, but what’s different about this than any other war setting that I’ve been to is that private citizens were opening up their homes to Ukrainians which was heartwarming and altruistic and amazing. But it also wasn’t regulated at the beginning. And so what was happening is that men in Ukraine between the ages of 18 and 60 who are physically and mentally able to fight are not allowed to leave. It’s martial law at the moment they’re not allowed to leave so women are leaving by themselves often with children in tow going over to these neighboring countries and being taken in by private citizens. What has been reported, what has evolved are situations of sexual exploitation and sexual abuse against women and the children and women feeling disenfranchised or disempowered being in this extremely vulnerable situation to speak up about it and to get help, so there’s that aspect of the refugee situation. But then there’s this other aspect that started to come up that I was hearing about, that it was for some women who were in domestic violence situations in Ukraine, leaving Ukraine and the war and leaving their husband – the perpetrator behind – was the first time that they were able to escape that situation. So for some women, it was also the ticket to freedom to get out of a domestic violence situation. I think there are two sides to that coin. But I think what we would definitely be seeing more of is the sexual exploitation of Ukrainian women living in private homes. Another sort of aspect that I only sort of heard about recently was that policies within neighboring countries shift in terms of how they’re taking care of the Ukrainian refugees, of women living inside private homes. We’ve transitioned now to refugees being able to get cash aid and also for women now I guess they’re establishing a life in these neighboring countries and also partnering up with men from those countries so whether it’s Moldova or Romania or Poland, in some of those situations we’re hearing of cases of domestic violence.
Dominic
If we look towards the future narrative, a lot of listeners will be certainly hoping that perpetrators of sexual violence will be brought to justice and I’ve been really pleased to see that we haven’t waited until the end of this conflict. There’s been a lot of training, training amongst journalists but training amongst lawyers and training amongst other people that have the skills and ability to learn about how to record crimes and how to collect evidence for use in possible prosecution. Prosecuting sexual violence as a war crime has proved very very difficult in the past and how likely do you think it is for people who are hoping that at the end of this conflict, there’ll be people brought to justice? Is that a realistic hope that this will come before a judicial system?
Nerida
I’m as hopeful as anyone else of course because these are not just crimes but they’re war crimes and they need to go to the international criminal court and be heard there. However, if we look at the precedent that has been set in the past It’s very very difficult to prosecute sexual violence war crimes and if they do happen it takes years and years and years. But what does give me some hope is that Ukraine itself of course is taking this very seriously – they’ve set up a task force within their police which specifically is dealing with these reports. They’ve established a hotline for women to be able to call even anonymously to be able to report these crimes but what we also know is that sexual violence in any context anywhere in the world is fairly taboo and women often don’t come forward because of shame in this situation in this situation. What I was hearing is that this is doubly compounded by the fact that the aggressor, the enemy, is the one that has committed the crime, and for the woman’s body to be seen as a site of that, the worry for some women is even talking to their husbands or their families about this type of crime would maybe put them at risk of having their husband leave them because even the thought of his wife having been touched by a Russian soldier is unfathomable. So I think there’s just so many layers in this context that’s preventing women from coming forward. We probably don’t even know the tip of the iceberg when it comes to numbers.
Dominic
I mean you’ve worked in various regions experiencing crises including natural disasters and other conflicts. How does the situation in Ukraine compare to other humanitarian crises you’ve witnessed particularly concerning the gender-specific issues and what unique challenges are being faced by women in Ukraine today?
Nerida Williams
Yeah, as you said I have been working in this sector for almost fourteen years and I’ve been to humanitarian situations all over the world and Ukraine was very different for me for for many reasons. My job is to sit down and interview women. My job is to amplify their testimony, to share with the world their stories so people can understand better what is going on from a human point of view much like I shared the story earlier about the woman who had to access a safe abortion, I have thousands of interviews like that that I’ve I’ve done. so I’m very privileged to have this time with people in Ukraine. I would say I’ve never spoken to people and women who were so evidently in shock. So what they had been through was so heinous. The people who had escaped from Russian-occupied areas of Ukraine some of whom you have visited previously, were absolutely in shock and I had to be very very careful and deliberate when I was speaking with them and very sensitive because of what they had witnessed. One woman said to me that it was just hell. So that was the first difference for me, you know when I go to a natural disaster for example, whether it’s an earthquake or a tsunami people are traumatized and in shock but not to the extent of what I’ve seen in man-made conflicts I think the level of it is different because it’s deliberate and it’s malicious and it involves things that humans should never have to see. I mean their next-door neighbor’s house being bombed the apartment next door being bombed children being killed. It was very distressing to speak with some of these survivors. And the other difference was that, as you pointed out before, prior to this war and even now in some parts of Ukraine life still goes on and it rolls by and when I was in Kyiv in April this year, thankfully, it’s liberated now, in Kyiv you could have been walking down the street of any Eastern European city and there were teenagers holding hands walking down the street a mother with their child people sitting out at cafes having coffees. The only difference that you would notice in a place like Kyiv is that the air raid sirens still go off on a daily basis which for me was something new and I’d never experienced these air raid sirens. But for Ukrainians, it is so normalized that no one blinks an eyelid or even stops taking their sip of coffee. This is the life that they’re living, and I also went down to Odessa which is very close to the front line and is regularly bombed. In fact, the first night we were there Odessa was bombed so this was my first experience being in a city that was under bombardment. But again you know we went down to the bomb shelter underneath the hotel and I was probably 1 of 3 or 4 people down there and the rest of the hotel guests kept sleeping because it is so regularly bombed during the nighttime that if people went down to the shelter every night, and we were there for 3 hours between one thirty and four-thirty in the morning, if you do that every night then your life is going to be so severely impacted. Life has to go on in these cities. People have jobs to go to and families to care for. So I think that is the duality that I really noticed in Ukraine, that you see the images on the news and certainly in occupied areas that is the way it is but in unoccupied areas there is a mixture of the reality of what it’s like to live in a war zone that a lot of people perhaps don’t realize.
Dominic
My understanding is that the use of sexual violence even during conflict is deeply rooted in power dynamics. So I wonder if is it fair to say that patriarchal structures contribute to the problem and if that’s so what can be done to address these underlying issues both in conflicts in Ukraine and also more globally?
Nerida
It’s definitely a patriarchal issue. They say that in Ukraine it’s genocide wrapped in gender-based violence and we know that sexual violence in war is either systemic or opportunistic. Either way, it’s patriarchal and it’s using and abusing a woman’s body and uterus and reproductive organs as another site of a battlefield. A woman’s body becomes another site of a battlefield in a war because not only do they want to win the land and want the ownership of the land and the ports and everything that comes with that but they also want to make sure that they really get to the heart of a country. And because there is so much importance wrapped up in women’s bodies through this patriarchal system that we all live in the the worst way that they can do that is by attacking women’s bodies but also their reproductive capacity. Because they don’t want Ukrainians to procreate and they want Ukrainian women to be having babies with Russian fathers and we’ve seen this before in other conflicts. This is not the first time that we’ve seen this. But if this kind of sentiment did not already exist in society, and we know that sexual assault in Russia was already quite high, you’ve already got this sentiment inside the minds of men that women’s bodies can be abused and they can be a site of a power struggle and then you put these same men into situations where they’re in a war zone where everything is heightened. Emotions are heightened. Toxic masculinity is heightened and they want to bond with their fellow soldiers quickly this is the end result. So you’re right, it does all start with patriarchy and I think addressing that first is perhaps just one step in trying to reduce this.
Dominic
You work internationally and you see a lot of different programming and obviously a lot of amazing and wonderful and inspirational people in the work you do. But I guess there are a lot of different risks that you you come across internationally we’re focused a lot on the the risks of gender-based violence and sexual assault in Ukraine as a result of the war. But when you look internationally what are the risks that concern you the most?
Nerida Williams
The issue that really concerns me the most first of regarding humanitarian crises is the climate crisis first and foremost because we know that there are certain types of natural disasters that are either increased or exasperated by the climate crisis and often natural disasters that people wouldn’t necessarily correlate with climate change. So for example, there’s a rise in the frequency of cyclones in the Pacific. The Pacific has a cyclone season every year from around November to January but what we can see if we track over the last few decades is that those are increasing and the severity is increasing as well. Then we can look at flooding I mean Pakistan has experienced massive flooding in the last year monsoonal floods that we see throughout Asia and South Asia every year during the middle of the year again they are increasing and the severity is getting worse. Droughts are getting worse I mean the list just goes on and the impact it has on the humanitarian situation is meaning that more and more people are getting impacted. These cyclic events and not even being able to recover from the last one before the next one comes so then people are migrating and living in different areas. The other thing that worries me is the increase in conflicts. What we’re seeing now is more people than ever are in need of humanitarian assistance and the UN releases statistics every year about the amount of people that are in need every year It’s higher than the year before and this hasn’t changed for for years and years now. So the humanitarian sector really needs to be stretched really really stretched in order to be able to provide assistance to the millions of people that are in need. But at the same time, we generally are seeing a cut in foreign aid budgets across many governments, and in the particular sector that I work in sexual and reproductive health, it can be even more at risk because of the nature of the work that we do. So for example, because we provide safe abortion care and we’re one of the largest providers of that in the world then we have our funding cut every time a Republican is in power in the states. And so we are really at the whim of government pulses when it comes to the morality around sexual and reproductive healthcare. But in saying that there are many governments and private donors and multilaterals that are very very supportive of the work that we do and so we we do get by and we are fine. I just really feel that the confluence of the increase in the number of people who need help and the decrease in the availability of foreign aid is putting my sector in a very tough and precarious situation.
Dominic
Certainly, and for anyone interested in learning more about that, the UN Office of Coordination for Humanitarian Affairs produces reports at the country level every year and produces a global humanitarian snapshot. There’s no shortage of humanitarian need and that’s only going to increase as conflict does, and we’re seeing both in North Africa with significant political and human insecurity, and of course in Ukraine lots of tensions in many other parts of the world combined with the climate crisis. It certainly does make for ah some concerns. Thanks very much for unpacking all of these topics with us, and thank you very much for coming on The International Risk Podcast today.
Nerida
You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.
Dominic
Well, that was a great conversation with Nerida Williams senior humanitarian communications adviser with IPFF. I really appreciated hearing her thoughts on the risks of sexual violence associated with the illegal invasion of Ukraine. Today’s podcast was coordinated and produced by Lottie James. I’m Dominic Bowen host of The International Risk Podcast. Thanks for listening and we’ll speak again next week.
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